<HTML dir=ltr><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=unicode" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.18813">
<STYLE>
<!--
font-face
{font-family:Calibri;}
font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;}
font-face
{font-family:Georgia;}
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.EmailStyle17
{
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#0070C0;
font-weight:normal;
font-style:normal;
text-decoration:none none;}
span.EmailStyle18
{
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{
font-size:10.0pt;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY lang=EN-US link=blue vLink=purple>
<DIV dir=ltr id=idOWAReplyText95995>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial>Clark,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I believe the document you are looking for is here:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial><A href="http://www.usgbc.org/ShowFile.aspx?DocumentID=4176">http://www.usgbc.org/ShowFile.aspx?DocumentID=4176</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Let me see if I understand your question correctly: you're not certain what energy rate to apply to the steam or hot water used by the new building since there isn't another example of a hot water or steam plant in the state from which to obtain rates? If that's the case, you don't need to look for rates. As Seth pointed out and as far as I know you only need to find the local rate for whatever fuel the CEP is using to generate hot water or steam. If they are using oil, then the local oil rate (likely the commercial rate, not the residential one) would apply. Ultimately, the CEP is consuming some type of fuel to generate thermal energy and the building is modelled as also consuming the same fuel. I believe the intent of this methodology is to prevent any skewing of results that might arise from the CEP's abilities to use economies of scale to offer lower rates, or conversely charge premiums for capital investment and maintenance. This ensures that only the efficiency of the building, the CEP and the distribution systems factors into the EAc1 calculation.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I hope that answers your question.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Cheers,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Luka</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial>
<P dir=ltr class=MsoNormal align=left><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Luka Matutinovic, </SPAN></B><SPAN class=SpellE><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">B.A.Sc</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">., LEED<SUP>®</SUP> AP</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><EM><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 6pt"> </SPAN></EM><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 6pt"><BR></SPAN></I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">T. 416.644.0649</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">F. 416.487.9766 <BR>Toll Free 1.888.425.7255<BR>www.halsall.com <BR></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 6pt"><BR></SPAN><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">HALSALL ASSOCIATES LTD. <BR></SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 7pt">Toronto</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 7pt"> Richmond Hill Ottawa Sudbury <BR>Burlington Calgary Vancouver Dubai <BR></SPAN><SPAN><BR><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10px"><STRONG><FONT face=Verdana>‘50 Best Workplaces in Canada’ <BR></FONT></STRONG><I><FONT face=Verdana>2009 Globe and Mail</FONT><BR></I></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Webdings; COLOR: green; FONT-SIZE: 18pt">P</SPAN><STRONG><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN></STRONG><SPAN class=GramE><STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: green; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">Please</SPAN></STRONG></SPAN><STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: green; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt"> consider the environment before printing this e-mail</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt"></SPAN></P>
<DIV><FONT face=Univers><FONT size=2><SPAN class=792315321-02102009></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT face=Univers><FONT size=2><SPAN class=792315321-02102009></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><BR>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org on behalf of Clark Denson<BR><B>Sent:</B> Fri 02/10/2009 5:02 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Seth P. Spangler; Karen Walkerman; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Bldg-sim] Simulation of Central Plant for LEED 2.2 EA C1<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I’ve been interested in the topic of District Thermal Energy treatment, as well. </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">My question concerns Step 1 (Building stand-alone scenario): In a campus setting like a hospital, new buildings are typically served by an existing CEP, and yet the new building is not charged a rate for CHW or HW. The USGBC guidance indicates that in this case, “local market rates as explained in the LEED v2.2 Reference Guide” should be used. However, I have not found this data to be readily accessible, nor have I found guidance in the LEED Reference Guide. In my most recent project in Florida, I’ve been able to find District Chilled Water plants close to the project site, but it is my understanding that there is not a single District Hot Water or Steam Plant in the entire state!</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">What do I do in this case? And where in the LEED Reference Guide is the “Treatment” referring to?</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Thanks for your help,</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Clark Denson</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Seth P. Spangler [mailto:sspangle@rmf.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, October 02, 2009 12:44 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Karen Walkerman; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Bldg-sim] Simulation of Central Plant for LEED 2.2 EA C1</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #0070c0; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Karen,</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #0070c0; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #0070c0; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I gave a presentation on this subject with a member from USGBC and this exact question was brought up. The answer was to use the local rate for both systems. LEED/ASHRAE require that the energy rate be the same for both the baseline and proposed designs. </SPAN><I>Fuel and electricity rates are assigned using the local utility rate schedules as they would normally apply to the building and using the normal ASHRAE and LEED modeling rules. </I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #0070c0; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">This line while a little ambiguous means that you should use the rate that would be applied to the building if it was not connected to the plant, not the discounted rate that the plant most likely receives. <I></I></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #0070c0; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></I> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #0070c0; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Thanks</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #0070c0; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></I> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'; COLOR: #0070c0; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Seth Spangler, LEED® AP </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'; COLOR: #0070c0; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Project Engineer</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'; COLOR: #0070c0"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'; COLOR: #0070c0; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">RMF Engineering, Inc </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'; COLOR: #0070c0; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Ph: (843) 971-9639 ext:1497</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: #0070c0"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'; COLOR: #0070c0; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Fax: (843) 971-9641 </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'; COLOR: #0070c0; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">sspangle@rmf.com</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #0070c0; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></P>
<DIV style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Karen Walkerman<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 15, 2009 5:21 PM<BR><B>To:</B> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Bldg-sim] Simulation of Central Plant for LEED 2.2 EA C1</SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Hi All,<BR><BR>I'm completing a model of a building that is heated by a central campus steam plant for LEED NC 2.2 EA P1 and C1. I've followed the guidelines in "Required Treatment of District Thermal Energy in LEED NC 2.2 and LEED for Schools" dated May 28, 2008.<BR><BR>I'm doing pretty well, but I'm a bit confused by the following paragraph (page 8 under the heading: Energy Model Implementation – Energy rates)<BR><BR>Step 2 (Aggregate Building / DES scenario) – in this modeling scenario the DES-supplied energy is not<BR>modeled as cost-neutral purchased energy, and thus purchased DES rates (chilled water, steam, hot<BR>water) are ignored. Fuel and electricity rates are assigned using the local utility rate schedules as they<BR>would normally apply to the building and using the normal ASHRAE and LEED modeling rules. For<BR>the Baseline Building the rates are applied to the code-compliant heating or cooling plant as instructed<BR>in Appendix G, and for the Proposed Building the rates are applied to the virtual plant according to the<BR>actual energy sources used in the upstream DES (electricity, gas, oil, etc.).<BR><BR>They are a bit unclear...<BR><BR>If the central plant burns #6 oil, do you use the local rate for #6 oil for the proposed system and the local rate for home heating oil for the baseline?<BR><BR>OR<BR><BR>do you use the local rate for home heating oil for both?<BR><BR>Has anyone submitted one of these projects yet?<BR><BR>Thanks for your help.<BR><BR>--<BR>Karen</P></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>