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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Karen, this seems to contradict your earlier statement. Or
more likely, I’m just not comprehending it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>As Cam pointed out, the user’s manual says that when an
existing system exists, as in an existing building that is being built out for
a tenant, the HVAC system in the baseline may match the proposed. This
makes sense to me, and it was how I understood the modeling requirements.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>However, it doesn’t go into more depth than this, and
neither do the CIRs, if there are modifications to the existing plant to
increase efficiency, but that do NOT alter the system type.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>As another example:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>LEED building, 10-stories, existing water-cooled chilled water
plant serving dual duct terminals.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The manuals and CIRs basically say:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Geneva;color:red'>For
modified areas/systems: The Proposed Building Performance is calculated as per
design. The Baseline Building Performance is calculated as per ASHRAE 90.1-2004
Appendix G requirements<br>
<br>
For areas/systems not modified: Both the Proposed and the Baseline Building
Performance must be modeled as per the existing conditions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Geneva;color:#333333'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>This is straight out of a CIR ruling dated 2/9/09.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>But what if we took our example building, and made a minor
change to, say, the AHUs (as part the LEED project, we installed VFDs to
replace a pressure bypass configuration).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Is this “modifying” the existing systems enough so
that we would then have to model the Baseline HVAC system per the App G
requirements (System 7 or 8) in lieu of modeling the baseline HVAC system as
the existing system (dual duct system)? Or could we just bring the AHUs
up to App G requirements (temperatures, VFD, fan HP sizing, etc), and leave the
chilled water plant and air distribution system as it currently exists since we
aren’t modifying those?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Thanks for any clarification.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>This is particularly important for this project because the
Client does not have sufficient funds to upgrade the chilled water plant, so
all existing equipment is to remain. If I have to bring the Baseline HVAC
system completely to App G standards, that’s a huge penalty since the
proposed building chillers are older.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:teal'>GHT
Limited<br>
</span></b><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><ns0:PersonName><span
style='color:black'>James Hansen</span></ns0:PersonName></span></b><b><span
style='color:black'>, PE, LEED AP<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Senior Associate</span></b><b><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><ns0:Street><ns0:address><span
style='color:black'>1010 N. Glebe Rd, Suite 200</span></ns0:address></ns0:Street></span><span
style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><ns0:place><ns0:City><span
style='color:black'>Arlington</span></ns0:City><span style='color:black'>, </span><ns0:State><span
style='color:black'>VA</span></ns0:State><span style='color:black'> </span><ns0:PostalCode><span
style='color:black'>22201-4749</span></ns0:PostalCode></ns0:place></span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>703-338-5754 (Cell)</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>703-243-1200 (Office)</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>703-276-1376 (Fax)</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:teal'><a href="http://www.ghtltd.com/"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>www.ghtltd.com</span></a></span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Cam Fitzgerald
[mailto:cam@energyopportunities.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 04, 2009 4:14 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Karen Walkerman'; James Hansen<br>
<b>Cc:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Bldg-sim] Existing building HVAC modeling<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>See ASHRAE 90.1-2004 User’s Manual, page G-21…HVAC
Systems #1</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>“A complete HCVAC system exists…In a case like this,
the proposed building and baseline building models are the same and based on
the existing HVAC system.”</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Hope this helps.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Cam S. Fitzgerald, PE, LEED AP</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:green'>Energy
Opportunities, LLC</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:green'>a
7group company</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>phone: (717) 292-2636 x11</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>fax: (717) 292-0585</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>e-mail: <a href="mailto:fitzgerald@sevengroup.com"
title="mailto:fitzgerald@sevengroup.com">fitzgerald@sevengroup.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Karen
Walkerman<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 04, 2009 12:07 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> James Hansen<br>
<b>Cc:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Existing building HVAC modeling</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>>From table G3.1:<br>
<br>
"The HVAC system(s) in the baseline building design shall be of the type
and<br>
description specified in G3.1.1, shall meet the general HVAC system<br>
requirements specified in G3.1.2, and shall meet any system-specific<br>
requirements in G3.1.3 that are applicable to the baseline HVAC system<br>
type(s)."<br>
<br>
the only time the existing building properties are used are for the building
envelope.<br>
<br>
--<br>
Karen<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 9:50 AM, James Hansen <<a
href="mailto:JHANSEN@ghtltd.com">JHANSEN@ghtltd.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'>Thanks for the response Seth. The entire
building is undergoing a renovation (new windows, insulation,
lighting)…and I’m going to keep the existing HVAC system in the
EXISTING portion of the building for my baseline model. I just
don’t know how to treat the NEW portion of my building in the baseline
model. The plant is interconnected, so Item No 2 in Table G3.1
doesn’t apply. I want to include the existing building in the model
(and I have to).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'>Any other advice on how to properly set up the
baseline HVAC system for a new portion of an existing building if the proposed
chilled water plant is being expanded to accommodate new load but the existing
airside systems in the existing building are NOT being touched?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'>Common sense would say that my baseline building
also has a new App G chiller to accommodate new load and the new airside
systems are shutoff boxes….but if there is a chance that the new portion
of the building is treated as a standalone 15,000 square foot addition,
packaged RTUs may make the proposed system even more efficient.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'>Paul, thanks for the email…I’m going
to look thru CIRs and see what I can find. Can’t wait for LEED v3.0
where this convenient Option goes away.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'>Thanks again,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p><b><span style='color:teal'>GHT Limited<br>
</span><span style='color:black'>James Hansen, PE, LEED AP</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Senior Associate</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:black'>1010 N. Glebe Rd, Suite 200</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:black'>Arlington, VA 22201-4749</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:black'>703-338-5754 (Cell)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:black'>703-243-1200 (Office)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:black'>703-276-1376 (Fax)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p><span style='color:teal'><a href="http://www.ghtltd.com/"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>www.ghtltd.com</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;
border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color'>
<p><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'> Seth P. Spangler [mailto:<a href="mailto:sspangle@rmf.com">sspangle@rmf.com</a>]
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Sent:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> Friday, September 04, 2009 9:23 AM</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>To:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> James Hansen; <a
href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Bldg-sim] Existing building HVAC modeling</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'>James,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'>If you are only adding an
additional floor – and are not renovating any portion of the existing 1<sup>st</sup>-4<sup>th</sup>
floors then I would model the 5<sup>th</sup> floor as if it was a new building by
itself according to App. G guidelines. See Table G 3.1 item no. 2 in 90.1-2004</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'>If the entire building is
undergoing a renovation but the existing HVAC systems are existing to remain
then the building would be modeled to reflect the existing system types and
capacities. Refer to the LEED manual for these guidelines.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'>Hope this helps.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:blue'>Seth
Spangler, LEED® AP </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:blue'>Project Engineer</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:blue'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:blue'>RMF
Engineering, Inc </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:blue'>Ph:
(843) 971-9639 ext:1497</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:blue'>Fax:
(843) 971-9641 </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:blue'><a
href="mailto:sspangle@rmf.com">sspangle@rmf.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;
border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color'>
<p><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>James Hansen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 04, 2009 9:07 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Bldg-sim] Existing building HVAC modeling</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I’m modeling a building for LEED EAc1 compliance, and was wondering how
you are supposed to model existing building HVAC systems if you are adding
square footage to the building.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Let’s assume you have a 4-story building with a 2-chiller HVAC plant
and dual temp boxes. If you were to add a 5<sup>th</sup> floor to the
building, what would your baseline model look like? I know that the 1<sup>st</sup>
four floors would use the existing HVAC system, but would your new 5<sup>th</sup>
floor be treated as a new 15,000 square foot area with packaged RTUs, or would
you add a new chiller to the existing HVAC chilled water plant, and have that
chiller meet all the requirements of App G, and have shutoff VAV boxes for the
5<sup>th</sup> floor in lieu of dual temp boxes? <o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>For reference, under our proposed design, we are doing just that:
adding a frictionless chiller to the plant to make up the extra load.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><span style='color:teal'>GHT Limited<br>
</span><span style='color:black'>James Hansen, PE, LEED AP</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Senior Associate</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:black'>1010 N. Glebe Rd, Suite 200</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:black'>Arlington, VA 22201-4749</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:black'>703-338-5754 (Cell)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:black'>703-243-1200 (Office)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:black'>703-276-1376 (Fax)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:teal'><a href="http://www.ghtltd.com/"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>www.ghtltd.com</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>The information contained in this
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Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this communication or any part
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me immediately by return e-mail or by e-mail to </span><span style='font-size:
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