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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Hi Malcolm,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Thanks very much for your considerate and informative reply.
I’m very excited to hear about the evolution of Demeter into something
much more developed and will certainly be signing up to give the alpha
Greenspace Live suite a test-drive! The development of a solid Sketchup </span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>à</span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>
TRNSYS bridge is also very exciting news.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I can’t speak for everyone here, but I’ve personally
found the [bldg-sim] and other mailing lists hosted at onebuilding.org to be an
invaluable source for both technical support from developers/end-users and
keeping up to speed with new products and their updates in functionality.
It’s my hope the Greenspace team will continue to announce major
developments here so individuals such as myself won’t miss something
important =).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Best wishes, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><br>
~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><img width=119 height=37 id="Picture_x0020_1"
src="cid:image001.jpg@01CA2D7C.A7722230" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span><b><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span style='font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#CC9900'>PROJECT ENGINEER</span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>25501 west valley parkway<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>olathe ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>direct 913 344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>fax 913 345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><i><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>Check out our new web-site @ </span></i><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><a
href="www.smithboucher.com" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue'> </span></u><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> Malcolm Murray
[mailto:malcolm.murray@lews.uhi.ac.uk] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 04, 2009 6:24 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nick Caton; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Donald I. Macdonald; Macritchie, Donald<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Fwd: [Bldg-sim] Sketchup <--> Demeter
Feedback/Experience<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Hello Mr Caton and all on the BLDG-Sim mailing list,<br>
<br>
Thanks for your feedback and suggestions regarding the Demeter tool and thanks
for your continued use of the tool.<br>
<br>
As my colleague Donald I Macdonald posted on the Bldg-Sim mailing list
yesterday, we have now released a new version of our SketchUp plugin now called
LiveEnergy as part of our Greenspace Live suite. The currently released version
of the LiveEnergy is entitled LiveEnergy Modeller and allows for the import and
export of gbXML files from Google SketchUp, which can then be used in a variety
of tools such as our own LiveEnergy EPC tool and other energy analysis
software. LiveEnergy Modeller does not currently have GBS enabled directly from
the interface, but this is something we may introduce at a later date, we are
also working on a version to work with TRNSYS (for more details see the paper
recently presented at the Building Simulation 2009 conference: <a
href="http://www.ibpsa.org/proceedings/BS2009/BS09_1389_1396.pdf">http://www.ibpsa.org/proceedings/BS2009/BS09_1389_1396.pdf</a>).<br>
<br>
We have also released training materials (including tutorial videos) on our
website, and have set up a new discussion forum. These can all be accessed on
our website at: <b><a href="http://greenspacelive.com">http://greenspacelive.com</a></b>
where the tools can also be downloaded.<br>
<br>
I will now address some of the feedback / issues highlighted in your email.<o:p></o:p></p>
<ul type=disc>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><b>Compatibility with other SketchUp plugins:</b>
We have made some efforts in this latest version of the plugin to package
the codebase more effectively, so that we shouldn't have as many issues
with incompatibilites with other plugins. However, we would be grateful if
any compatibility issues arising with other plugins could be reported on
our forum so that we can be aware of them. There is also now an option to
disable LiveEnergy Modeller from the Google Extensions manager (in the
settings window) without uninstalling the plugin.<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><b>Space Selection:</b> We have now introduced a
"semi-automatic" method of selecting spaces. You can now use our
"Select Space" tool to simply click on the floor surface of each
space and then the enclosing walls should be automatically selected.
Spaces are then confirmed by pressing the "Confirm Space"
button. This also allows you to manually select which surfaces go into the
space so that the user still has the same level of control as before. A
"Find Spaces" command is an interesting idea and something we
may include in a future version.<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><b>Cube Interface Size:</b> Our new LiveEnergy
interface has been cleaned up, and is no longer a 3D cube. The interface
is also much smaller by default, but can be maximised when you need to get
into the detailed user interface / construction libraries etc. Much of the
emphasis when building a model is now on using SketchUp materials and
tools to create the energy model, and not so much in the LiveEnergy
interface.<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><b>GBS Operation:</b> GBS operation has been
disabled in this current version of LiveEnergy. The reason why it will no
longer work with Demeter, is that the URLs for GBS have changed to
Autodesk ones. We have not updated Demeter to account for this, as we have
been concentrating on developing the new LiveEnergy Modeller.<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><b>XML File Extension: </b>This is has
proved to be a challenge due to the SketchUp api, but is something we will
develop.<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><b>Installer Defaults to SketchUp 6:</b> The
LiveEnergy installer now defaults to SketchUp 7.<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><b>Geometry Problems in the gbXML:</b> The gbXML
creation should now be significantly improved.<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><b>Plane Up / Plane Down etc:</b> These options
were designed to raise and lower the active section plane when assigning
spaces to the internal surfaces etc. This has now been replaced by a
single tool "Move Plane" that allows you to move the active
plane up and down using the mouse without deselecting surfaces. The
"Space Definition" window is no more (although there is a list
of spaces in the "Building Envelope" window).<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><b>Surface Definition:</b> This has now been
replaced by a new system using the SketchUp materials pallette that we
think is more intuitive and should be more familiar to SketchUp users -
you now "paint" the surface type onto each surface. As a way of
automatically doing this is something we can look into for a future
version.<o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
<p class=MsoNormal>News and updates about our tools as well as support
information etc can all be found on our new website at <a
href="http://greenspacelive.com">http://greenspacelive.com</a><br>
<br>
All our tools are currently at an "alpha" stage of development, and
are currently all available free of charge on this basis until the 31st of
October 2009. Anyone can now sign up to our website and get access to our whole
suite including LiveEnergy Modeller and LiveEnergy EPC. We would greatly
appreciate your feedback regarding these tools.<br>
<br>
I hope I have answered all your questions, but if you have any more enquiries
please feel free to get in touch, or post an enquiry on our forum.<br>
<br>
Best Regards and thanks for your interest,<br>
Malcolm Murray<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>___________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Malcolm Murray<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>PhD Student<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Greenspace Research<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>UHI Millennium Institute<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Lews Castle College<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Stornoway,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Isle of Lewis<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Scotland, UK<o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<br>
Donald Macritchie wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>"Nick Caton" <a
href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com"><ncaton@smithboucher.com></a> 02/09/2009 22:35 >>><o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre>Hello Dr. Finlayson,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>For whatever reason, I'm having a lot of difficulty searching for<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>answers to my Demeter inquries through google sketchup groups / bldg-sim<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>archives / Demeter forums (are they even up?)... and it occurred to me<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>there simply might not be much discussion out there to look for! This<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>email should go a long way to remedy that!<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>I have some feedback for your team in the form of constructive<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>criticism and issues I've had, along with a few related questions.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Overall, I really like what I see so far, though I understand the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>project is still under development (the current version hosted on the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>website is 0.8.9.2, for anyone following along). I'll throw out that my<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>feedback is colored from the perspective I've gained after some<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>successful experiences working with the free plugin from IES, which ties<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>into their commercial energy modeling software packages in much the same<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>way that Demeter is tied to Green Building Studio. <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>I'm also copying this feedback to the [bldg-sim] mailing list to spark<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>some further Demeter discussion/feedback and to request other end-users'<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>workarounds/experiences for our collective benefit. It's my hope that<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>the IES VE-Ware sketchup plugin development team will also review these<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>points as both tools have some key things to learn from each other...<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Any responses you've got addressing these points would be good to post<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>on [bldg-sim] as well, I'd imagine.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Feedback/Issues encountered:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>+ As you may be well aware, one cannot have the IES Sketchup<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>plugin and the Demeter plugin installed at the same time without<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>sketchup crashing at every startup. While one might speculate that you<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>two development teams might want that, being "competing" products (?), I<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>think it would be appropriate to recognize that users like myself who<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>might wish to explore Demeter/GBS vs. IES/IES-VEWare get annoyed when we<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>have to uninstall/reinstall software to do our jobs. Ideally I'd like<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>both installed at the moment anyway - see my next point...<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>+ Something to note: There is a real and interesting<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>contrast in the manner of defining spaces between the IES and Demeter<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>plugin. Demeter's capability to "check contiguity" for enclosed<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>volumes, and to highlight planes that are out-of-whack for ease in<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>correcting the issue is wonderful. The IES plugin's approach of "find<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>spaces" on the other hand is MUCH less tedious than having to manually<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>select every plane enclosing a space, without an opportunity to correct<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>one's selection if you accidentally miss or include a stray plane.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Ideally, I think both plugins ought to learn from each other and create<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>a "find spaces" command that, perhaps with an option ticked, might<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>perform that function while additionally subsequently highlighting any<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>and all non-contiguous planes to the defined volumes. Wouldn't life be<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>grand? =)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>+ The cube user interface is altogether nifty and<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>functional. One major improvement however, for those of us without<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>large displays (Mine runs at 1280x1024), would be to have the option to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>have the interface "auto-hide" until one mouses-over the top of the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>window. As it is the model interface window uses up half of my working<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>space, making it kinda difficult to manipulate my model views to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>correctly select/de-select faces for defining the spaces.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>+ I cannot get the "energy analyse" cube-face to operate<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>correctly with GBS. It gives me an error consistently telling me<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>"Webserver Logon Failed." Any thoughts?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>+ (Nitpick) Whenever I export an xml file using the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>interface or plugin drop-down feature, the resulting file has no<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>extension. Adding .xml however allows GBS desktop to recognize the file<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>for importing.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>+ (Nitpick) The installer I have tries by default to install<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>to a Google Sketchup 6 directory. I'm using version 7 (this may be the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>root of some of my other issues). It'd be nice/convenient if the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>installer could figure that out on its own what is the appropriate<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>directory.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>+ Once the exported .xml file is selected in the appropriate<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>GBS desktop field, I cannot successfully complete a run. Trying to view<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>the model in VRML results in an error reading "geometry is not a field<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>of Material." I suspect incompatible versions of sketchup/GBS/Demeter<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>is the root of this issue...?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>+ Back to the UI: The "Space Definition" face of the cube<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>has three buttons whose function I have not been able to figure out, nor<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>find documentation explaining their purpose. Plane Up / Plane Down /<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Plane Tool. If they are intended to be some alternative to manually<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>selecting each face of a volume, that would be a step in the right<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>direction for ease of use (see above).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>+ Regarding the "Surface Definition" face of the cube...<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>here I have to get more critical. The first model I tried this out on<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>has something like 600+ faces. Your interface does not allow one to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>define more than one face at a time. One should be able to first select<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>and change an entire space's face properties as a group, and<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>subsequently be able to select multiple faces at a time to change their<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>properties. I hate to sound partial to IES but it sure is nice that the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>IES plugin figures out what is a floor vs. a roof vs. an<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>interior/exterior wall automatically (though to what degree of accuracy<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>I've not ascertained)... Something that both automatically guesses<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>(with some accuracy) surface definitions, while allowing the end-user to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>easily review and edit those properties would be ideal for both plugins.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>+ While I obviously am having trouble getting GBS to play<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>nicely with Demeter, I'm very hopeful that a successfully created .inp<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>file from GBS, originating from a Sketchup/Demeter model, will correctly<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>and accurately be importable into eQuest, where a good number of us<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>energy modelers get a lot of "post-preliminary-design-stage" work done.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>That would bridge a long-desired path I've had regarding establishing a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>workflow from Sketchup --> eQuest. Previous mailing list postings have<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>indicated this is a possibility, but as it stands with whatever<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>combination of compatibility/end-user (me) issues exist, I've yet to see<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>this pull through with my own eyes. I hope GBS's ties with Autodesk's<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Ecotect product won't impair this possibility in the future.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>+ On that note, could you clarify for myself and others the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>relationship that exists between the development teams for Demeter<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>(Green Space Research) Green Building Studio, and Autodesk's Ecotect<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>software? To what extent might the goals of one group<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>influence/restrict the others?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>+ Is there a mailing list one can join to be notified<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>if/when new versions of Demeter are developed?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>I hope this feedback is useful to many, and would encourage other users<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>of Sketchup/Demeter/IES/GBS to chime in with their thoughts and<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>experiences! <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>~Nick<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>NICK CATON, E.I.T.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>PROJECT ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>25501 west valley parkway<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>olathe ks 66061<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>direct 913 344.0036<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>fax 913 345.0617<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Check out our new web-site @ <a
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