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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>This is good discussion on this topic. I appreciate everyone’s
responses, and I’ll a bit more to the fire </span><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>J</span><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>My overall thinking is that I don’t think breaking up the
fan power adds any “significant” value to the overall process.
Yes, it obviously does make a difference but with limited time, resources, and
(more importantly) available fees (in my experience most clients want to pay very
little for LEED energy modeling) the question we should be asking </span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>à</span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> is
this of significant importance that justifies us spending time on it? And the
part about GBCI putting together review teams that enforce compliance with
90.1, that’s great. I am 100% for that. But splitting up the baseline
fan power isn’t actually a requirement of 90.1 Appendix G so I do not
know what they are enforcing here </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>à</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> their own opinion of how we
should be doing the modeling. If they want to see the fan power split up, they
need to lobby ASHRAE to get Appendix G changed so that we have more appropriate
fan baseline numbers that are broken into components. I think that would be
the best approach.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I think we’ve agreed that splitting up the baseline fan
energy into components does not make a difference with regards to overall fan
energy consumption. Now whether the fan energy is dumped in the supply or return,
the fan energy still has to be removed by the cooling system or outside air via
economizers? I don’t see how splitting up the fan energy makes a difference
with regards to cooling energy consumption. I would say that’s true for
most applications. For lab applications, I can see how there may be a
difference because the lab exhaust fans could be significant. For the vast
majority of applications, exhaust fans are fractional horsepower motors (i.e.
<< 1 HP), therefore very insignificant. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Regarding what I was saying earlier about Appendix G and
overestimating fan power, this was for the small packaged single zone or split
DX systems (i.e. system 3 & 4), which are probably the baseline systems on
the majority of LEED projects in the US, hence the significance (may change
somewhat now that the requirement for PVAV has shifted from 75000 SF to 25000
SF). The fan power equations in Appendix G used to overshoot power for the
smaller systems, but undershoot for the more intense systems like labs. Now,
the changes in 2007 version better account for labs, but the problem on the low
end has not been fixed (could be in the works). This is because the equations
assume 3” to 5” pressure drop while small systems have pressure
drops on the order of 1” to 1.25”. The example I use is my house </span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>à</span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> a 3
ton/1200 CFM unit. Per the equations in Appendix G, my system is estimated to
use ~ 946 watts of fan power. When I put my Fluke 39 meter on it and actually
measure the power </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;
color:#1F497D'>à</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> 550 watts, or 42% less. I believe that ARI SEER calcs would
assume ~ 365 watts/KCFM or 438 watts total (I wonder if they are assuming the
power based on the heating airflow because interestingly, my fan does use 440
watts in heating mode). When we do a LEED project and assume PSZ systems for
each zone (i.e. proposed design is VAV for example), we show ridiculous amounts
of fan energy savings, which are really fake because the fan energy for real
PSZ systems would be much less than the Appendix G equations show. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>If we want a <u>real</u> challenge in exceeding 90.1 for energy
savings </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>à</span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> let’s
get Appendix G changed to reflect more appropriate fan energy benchmarks for the
smaller PSZ systems. This could make a significant difference on LEED projects
because meeting LEED requirements will be much tougher to meet. I have
personally seen projects that would not meet the LEED minimum 14% savings
requirement were it not for the combination of artificially high baseline fan
energy values along with a very generous allowance of exterior/site lighting
power. These changes could be of significant value to our profession and make
our calculated savings numbers more legitimate. That’s the kind of stuff
I think GBCI and our profession should focus on (versus worrying about breaking
baseline fan energy numbers into components).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>That’s my two cents. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Have a great 4<sup>th</sup> weekend everyone.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>JAH<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#00B050'><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#00B050'>James
A. Hess, PE, CEM</span></i></b><span style='color:#00B050'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Energy Engineer</span><span
style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>TME, Inc.</span><span
style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Little Rock, AR</span><span
style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D'>ph
501-666-6776</span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D'>cell
501-351-4667</span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><u><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:blue'><a
href="mailto:email@tmecorp.com">jhess@tmecorp.com</a></span></u><u><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></u></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Michael Tillou
[mailto:michael.tillou@gmail.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 02, 2009 4:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Zeng, Ming<br>
<b>Cc:</b> James Hess; Gregg Liddick; Bldg-Sim<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>The Fan Power Allowance in ASHRAE 90.1 is based on
"good" engineering practice. I have attached a .pdf showing the
System Pressure Drops used in determining the allowances for both the VAV fan
system and the CV fan system. The fan efficiency assumed in both cases is
65% and air velocity is assumed to be 400 fpm through the coils and filters.
Filter pressure drop assumes dirty filters. The standard allows additional
credits for systems with heat recovery, high performance filtration, lower
design supply air temperatures and the use of relief fans vs return fans.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Also, addendum ac of ASHRAE 90.1-2004 modified the fan power
calculation methodology allowing an expanded list of allowances that better
suits a wider range of building types including hospitals and lab buildings.
Those changes are incorporated into Standard 90.1-2007.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I think that Michael Williamson gave the best reason yet why
it is important to split the baseline fan power among the supply, return and
exhaust fan components. Like many others I distribute baseline fan hp
using the same ratios as the proposed design even though the baseline system
configurations may be slightly different. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Finally, three cheers to GBCI for putting review teams
together that will actually do a decent job of ensuring compliance with
Standard 90.1 rather than just taking the design teams word for it. Maybe
folks will begin to realize that exceeding 90.1-2004 by 20-30% is actually a
challenge and building designs will begin to reflect the changes necessary to
meet that challenge. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Mike<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Michael Tillou, PE<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Associate Vice President <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Energy Services<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Cannon Design<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Zeng, Ming <<a
href="mailto:mzeng@leoadaly.com">mzeng@leoadaly.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'>Hi James,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'>I actually feel the baseline model fan energy is
too small. Baseline model fan usually gives 0.00078KW/cfm. For
proposed fans, typically it is 0.00016-0.00018 KW/cfm/in static. With
cooling coil at 1 inch, mid life filter at 1.5 (30% and 85%), energy wheel at
0.8, external static of 1.8 inch, you will get .00081 KW/CFM. And the
return fan and general exhaust fans haven’t been included yet. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'>Do you typically have less pressure drop than
listed for the system? Shall we use the clean filter or midlife filter
for pressure calc? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#888888'>Ming Zeng</span></b><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#888888'>, PE, LEED<sup>®</sup> Accredited
Professional</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#888888'>Mechanical Engineer</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'><b>Error! Filename not specified.</b></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:#888888'>730 Second Avenue South, Suite
1100, Minneapolis, MN 55402-2455</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><b><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:#888888'>T</span></b><span
style='font-size:8.0pt;color:#888888'> 612.338.8741 <b>F</b> 612.338.4840 <b>D</b> 612.341.9539 </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'><a href="http://www.leoadaly.com"
target="_blank">www.leoadaly.com</a> <a
href="mailto:MZeng@leoadaly.com" target="_blank">MZeng@leoadaly.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p><b><i><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#888888'>EXCELLENCE BEYOND
EXPECTATIONS</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>James Hess<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 02, 2009 10:43 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Gregg Liddick; Bldg-Sim</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'>Gregg,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'>I appreciate the response.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'>I see what they are trying to do; I just
don’t think it needs to be done. The total fan energy consumption
(supply, return, exhaust) is the same for comparison purposes to the proposed
design model.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'>On many projects, the baseline system is
different than the proposed </span><span style='font-family:Wingdings;
color:#1F497D'>à</span><span style='color:#1F497D'> packaged single zone
systems versus packaged VAV RTU, for example. Therefore, there would not
be any return fans on the packaged single zone systems to allocate fan energy
to. I don’t know if anyone is looking at this to that level of
detail. Another separate issue is that the Appendix G fan energy equation
way over estimates the fan energy associated with real packaged single zone
systems, but I’ve posted previously on that issue and won’t bore
anyone with those details.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'>I guess the bottom line is that if GBCI
absolutely insists that the baseline fan energy be broken into components,
we’ll come up with some kind of percentage allocation, similar to what
you have done, as applied to the total baseline fan energy consumption for the
sole purpose of filling out the template.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'>Thanks! </span><span style='font-family:Wingdings;
color:#1F497D'>J</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'>Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>JAH</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><i><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#00B050'> </span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><i><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#00B050'>James A. Hess, PE,
CEM</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Energy Engineer</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>TME, Inc.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Little Rock, AR</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D'>ph 501-666-6776</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D'>cell 501-351-4667</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><u><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:blue'><a
href="mailto:email@tmecorp.com" target="_blank">jhess@tmecorp.com</a></span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'> Gregg Liddick [mailto:<a href="mailto:gliddick@theepstengroup.com"
target="_blank">gliddick@theepstengroup.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 02, 2009 9:35 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> James Hess; Bldg-Sim<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'>Hi James,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'>As far as I’m concerned the main point of
having project teams break the fan energy down into components is to ensure
that the baseline fan power derived from the fan supply volume using Table
G3.1.2.9 is not all attributed to supply fans if exhaust fans, return fans,
etc. exist. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'>Regarding the breakdown, as far as I know
you’re correct in that there is no guidance on that and what I do is take
the percentages based on total fan power from the proposed case and apply it to
the baseline case (e.g. 70% supply, 20% return, 10% exhaust).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'>Best Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'>Gregg Liddick, EIT, LEED<sup>®</sup> AP</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>The Epsten Group, Inc.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>429 Edgewood Avenue</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Atlanta GA 30312</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Phone: 404-577-0370
ext. 102</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Fax: 404-577-1739</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'><a
href="http://www.theepstengroup.com" target="_blank"><span style='color:#1F497D'>www.theepstengroup.com</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#00B050'>Please consider the environment
before printing this e-mail.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:#1F497D'>This transmission is intended
exclusively for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This
communication may contain information that is confidential, proprietary,
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<p><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>James Hess<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 02, 2009 10:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Bldg-Sim<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p>We got a review comment on a recent LEED project asking us to break down the
baseline HVAC power into components even though there is no direction, or
requirement, from 90.1-2004 to do so.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Can someone please help me understand why this would be necessary? <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>LEED guidelines say we have to model per Appendix G, but Appendix G doesn't
say we have to do this.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>I do not think it is necessary to do this as the baseline total fan energy
consumption numbers would still be the same.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>The equation in Appendix G is meant to give a total allowance (for each
system) for supply, return, and exhaust fans. It doesn't matter if we break the
allowance down into components or not as the total fan energy consumption
remains the same. Therefore, there is no value in doing this.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>If we did break the fan energy numbers into components, how would we do that
given that there is no direction from ASHRAE or LEED on how to do this?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Thoughts?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p>James A. Hess, PE, CEM<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Energy Engineer<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>TME, Inc.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
On Jul 2, 2009, at 8:41 AM, "Jeremy Poling" <<a
href="mailto:jpoling@epsteinglobal.com" target="_blank">jpoling@epsteinglobal.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>This issue will start to become a
problem for anyone running energy models for LEED projects – reviewers on
the new review teams are asking to see the total fan power for the baseline
broken into individual components and reported as such in the template for
Energy and Atmosphere Credit 1. The 90.1-2004 User’s Manual is also
silent on the issue; however it raises another issue. In the example
(Example G-J on page G-28) the calculations use total building supply CFM for
an 80,000SF medical office building. Since the baseline is System 5 in
that example and there would be multiple zones for the baseline, it appears
that the equation should be used for the whole building only and not individual
systems. Is this how you are applying the formulas? The
user’s manual notes that fan powered VAV boxes are NOT included in the
total fan power number as calculated from G3.1.2.9.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p><strong><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>Jeremy R. Poling, LEED AP</span></strong><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;color:navy'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>Senior Sustainability Analyst<br>
Strategic Services</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><i><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:navy'>Site Solutions |
Operations | Sustainability</span></i><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:navy'><br>
<br>
</span><strong><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#C75B12'>EPSTEIN</span></strong><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:navy'>Architecture<br>
Interiors<br>
Engineering<br>
Construction</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'><br>
<br>
</span><strong><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:green'>Epstein is a firm
believer in sustainability. We ask that you please consider the environment
before printing this e-mail.</span></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</div>
<p><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ellen Franconi<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 02, 2009 7:37 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Vikram Sami; Bldg-Sim; Michael I Rosenberg<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>At my firm, we proportion the baseline total
fan power determined as an aggregated W/CFM based on the hp
assigned to the fan motors (supply, return, exhaust) in the design
documents. Of course this assumes that your baseline and
your proposed design have a one-to-one fan correspondence. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Ellen</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Ellen Franconi, Ph.D., LEED AP<br>
Senior Energy Analyst<br>
Architectural Energy Corporation<br>
2540 Frontier Avenue<br>
Boulder, CO 80301<br>
tel. 303-444-4149<br>
fax 303-444-4303<br>
<a href="mailto:efranconi@archenergy.com" target="_blank">efranconi@archenergy.com</a><br>
<a href="http://www.archenergy.com/" target="_blank">http://www.archenergy.com/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
>>> "Rosenberg, Michael I" <<a
href="mailto:michael.rosenberg@pnl.gov" target="_blank">michael.rosenberg@pnl.gov</a>>
7/1/2009 4:48 PM >>></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>You have calculated the kW/cfm correctly
according to the 2004 version of Appendix G. The allowance actually goes up a
little in 2007, for your case. As for the second part of your question, no you
do not apply the same kW/cfm to the exhaust fan. The calculated allowed fan
power the total allowed power for all fans that are part of the system,
including the exhaust fan. The cfm component is based on the supply fan cfm
only. Unfortunately, Appendix G gives no direction on how to divide the allowed
fan power up among the various fans in the system. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Mike</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p><b><span style='color:#D47500'>__________________________</span></b> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b>Michael Rosenberg</b> <br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Senior Commercial Buildings Energy Analyst</span>
<br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt'>ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT DIRECTORATE </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Pacific Northwest National Laboratory </span><br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt'>2032 Todd Street </span><br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Eugene, OR 97405 </span><br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt'>(541) 844-1960 </span><br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a href="mailto:michael.rosenberg@pnl.gov"
target="_blank">michael.rosenberg@pnl.gov</a> </span><br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#D47500'><a href="http://www.pnl.gov"
target="_blank">www.pnl.gov</a></span> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Vikram Sami<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 01, 2009 3:03 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Bldg-Sim<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>G3.1.2.9 Gives you a formula for calculating system fan electrical power for
supply, return, exhaust and relief. Lets sat I have a zone with a PSZ-HP that
has a supply volume of 1500 cfm. Using this formula along with table G3.1.2.9 I
get a fan horse power of 1.29 and kW of 1.17. This equates to 0.00078 kW/cfm
– which seems really high. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>The second part to my question is assuming I have 500cfm of exhaust in this
zone, do I apply the same kW/cfm to the exhaust fans as well as the return
fans? It seems that the lower the fan volume the more inefficient the Appendix
G values get from these tables. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Any guidance would be much appreciated. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:black'>Vikram Sami,</span></b>
<span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:black'>LEED AP</span> <br>
<span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:black'>Direct Phone
404-253-1466 | Direct Fax 404-253-1366</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
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style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:maroon'>ARGENT</span></b><b><span
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<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
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</blockquote>
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