<div><br></div><div>The Fan Power Allowance in ASHRAE 90.1 is based on "good" engineering practice. I have attached a .pdf showing the System Pressure Drops used in determining the allowances for both the VAV fan system and the CV fan system. The fan efficiency assumed in both cases is 65% and air velocity is assumed to be 400 fpm through the coils and filters. Filter pressure drop assumes dirty filters. The standard allows additional credits for systems with heat recovery, high performance filtration, lower design supply air temperatures and the use of relief fans vs return fans.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Also, addendum ac of ASHRAE 90.1-2004 modified the fan power calculation methodology allowing an expanded list of allowances that better suits a wider range of building types including hospitals and lab buildings. Those changes are incorporated into Standard 90.1-2007.</div>
<div><br></div><div>I think that Michael Williamson gave the best reason yet why it is important to split the baseline fan power among the supply, return and exhaust fan components. Like many others I distribute baseline fan hp using the same ratios as the proposed design even though the baseline system configurations may be slightly different. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Finally, three cheers to GBCI for putting review teams together that will actually do a decent job of ensuring compliance with Standard 90.1 rather than just taking the design teams word for it. Maybe folks will begin to realize that exceeding 90.1-2004 by 20-30% is actually a challenge and building designs will begin to reflect the changes necessary to meet that challenge. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div><br></div><div>Mike</div><div><br></div><div>Michael Tillou, PE</div><div>Associate Vice President </div><div>Energy Services</div><div>Cannon Design</div><div><br></div><div> </div>
<div> <br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Zeng, Ming <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mzeng@leoadaly.com">mzeng@leoadaly.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<p style="margin-left:0in"><span style="color:#1F497D">Hi
James,</span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0in"><span style="color:#1F497D">I actually
feel the baseline model fan energy is too small. Baseline model fan usually
gives 0.00078KW/cfm. For proposed fans, typically it is 0.00016-0.00018
KW/cfm/in static. With cooling coil at 1 inch, mid life filter at 1.5 (30% and
85%), energy wheel at 0.8, external static of 1.8 inch, you will get .00081
KW/CFM. And the return fan and general exhaust fans haven’t been included yet.
</span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0in"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0in"><span style="color:#1F497D">Do you
typically have less pressure drop than listed for the system? Shall we use the
clean filter or midlife filter for pressure calc? </span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p style="margin-left:0in"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#888888">Ming Zeng</span></b><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#888888">, PE,
LEED<sup>®</sup> Accredited Professional</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#888888"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#888888">Mechanical Engineer</span></p>
</div>
<p style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div>
<p style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D"><img width="380" height="26" alt="LEO A DALY"></span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D"></span></p>
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<p style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:#888888">730 Second Avenue South, Suite
1100, Minneapolis, MN 55402-2455</span></p>
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<p style="margin-left:0in"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:#888888">T</span></b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:#888888"> 612.338.8741 <b>F</b> 612.338.4840 <b>D</b> 612.341.9539 </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.leoadaly.com" target="_blank">www.leoadaly.com</a> <a href="mailto:MZeng@leoadaly.com" target="_blank">MZeng@leoadaly.com</a></span></p>
</div>
<p style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
</div>
<p><b><i><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#888888">EXCELLENCE BEYOND EXPECTATIONS</span></i></b><span style="color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p style="margin-left:0in"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>James Hess<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 02, 2009 10:43 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Gregg Liddick; Bldg-Sim</span></p><div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power</div></div><p></p>
</div>
</div><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<p> </p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D">Gregg,</span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D">I appreciate the response.</span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D">I see what they are trying to
do; I just don’t think it needs to be done. The total fan energy
consumption (supply, return, exhaust) is the same for comparison purposes to
the proposed design model.</span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D">On many projects, the baseline
system is different than the proposed </span><span style="font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">à</span><span style="color:#1F497D"> packaged single zone
systems versus packaged VAV RTU, for example. Therefore, there would not
be any return fans on the packaged single zone systems to allocate fan energy
to. I don’t know if anyone is looking at this to that level of
detail. Another separate issue is that the Appendix G fan energy equation
way over estimates the fan energy associated with real packaged single zone
systems, but I’ve posted previously on that issue and won’t bore anyone with
those details.</span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D">I guess the bottom line is that
if GBCI absolutely insists that the baseline fan energy be broken into
components, we’ll come up with some kind of percentage allocation, similar to
what you have done, as applied to the total baseline fan energy consumption for
the sole purpose of filling out the template.</span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D">Thanks! </span><span style="font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><span style="color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D">Regards,</span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div>
<p style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black"> </span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">JAH</span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0in"><b><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#00B050"> </span></i></b></p>
<p style="margin-left:0in"><b><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#00B050">James A. Hess, PE,
CEM</span></i></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#00B050"></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D">Energy Engineer</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D">TME, Inc.</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D">Little Rock, AR</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D">ph
501-666-6776</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D">cell 501-351-4667</span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0in"><u><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:blue"><a href="mailto:email@tmecorp.com" target="_blank">jhess@tmecorp.com</a></span><span style="color:#1F497D"></span></u></p>
</div>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p style="margin-left:0in"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> Gregg Liddick
[mailto:<a href="mailto:gliddick@theepstengroup.com" target="_blank">gliddick@theepstengroup.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 02, 2009 9:35 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> James Hess; Bldg-Sim<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D">Hi James,</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D">As far as I’m concerned the main point of having project teams
break the fan energy down into components is to ensure that the baseline fan
power derived from the fan supply volume using Table G3.1.2.9 is not all
attributed to supply fans if exhaust fans, return fans, etc. exist. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D">Regarding the breakdown, as far as I know you’re correct in that
there is no guidance on that and what I do is take the percentages based on
total fan power from the proposed case and apply it to the baseline case (e.g.
70% supply, 20% return, 10% exhaust).</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D">Best Regards,</span><span style="color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0in"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D">Gregg Liddick, EIT, LEED<sup>®</sup> AP</span><span style="color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0in"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D">The Epsten Group, Inc.</span><span style="color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D">429 Edgewood Avenue</span><span style="color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D">Atlanta GA 30312</span><span style="color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D">Phone: 404-577-0370
ext. 102</span><span style="color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D">Fax: 404-577-1739</span><span style="color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.theepstengroup.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:#1F497D">www.theepstengroup.com</span></a></span><span style="color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0in"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#00B050">Please consider the
environment before printing this e-mail.</span><span style="color:#1F497D"></span></p>
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This communication may contain information that is confidential, proprietary,
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<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p style="margin-left:0in"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>James Hess<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 02, 2009 10:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Bldg-Sim<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p>We got a review comment on a recent LEED project asking us
to break down the baseline HVAC power into components even though there is no
direction, or requirement, from 90.1-2004 to do so.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Can someone please help me understand why this would be
necessary? </p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>LEED guidelines say we have to model per Appendix G, but
Appendix G doesn't say we have to do this.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>I do not think it is necessary to do this as the baseline
total fan energy consumption numbers would still be the same.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>The equation in Appendix G is meant to give a total
allowance (for each system) for supply, return, and exhaust fans. It doesn't
matter if we break the allowance down into components or not as the total fan
energy consumption remains the same. Therefore, there is no value in doing
this.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>If we did break the fan energy numbers into components, how
would we do that given that there is no direction from ASHRAE or LEED on how to
do this?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Thoughts?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Regards,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
<div>
<p>James A. Hess, PE, CEM</p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Energy Engineer</p>
</div>
<div>
<p>TME, Inc.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Jul 2, 2009, at 8:41 AM, "Jeremy Poling" <<a href="mailto:jpoling@epsteinglobal.com" target="_blank">jpoling@epsteinglobal.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy">This issue will start to become a problem for anyone running energy
models for LEED projects – reviewers on the new review teams are asking to see the
total fan power for the baseline broken into individual components and reported
as such in the template for Energy and Atmosphere Credit 1. The 90.1-2004
User’s Manual is also silent on the issue; however it raises another
issue. In the example (Example G-J on page G-28) the calculations use
total building supply CFM for an 80,000SF medical office building. Since
the baseline is System 5 in that example and there would be multiple zones for
the baseline, it appears that the equation should be used for the whole
building only and not individual systems. Is this how you are applying
the formulas? The user’s manual notes that fan powered VAV boxes are NOT
included in the total fan power number as calculated from G3.1.2.9.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy"> </span></p>
<div>
<p><strong><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy">Jeremy R. Poling, LEED AP</span></strong><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:navy"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy">Senior Sustainability Analyst<br>
Strategic Services</span></p>
<p><i><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:navy">Site Solutions | Operations | Sustainability</span></i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy"><br>
<br>
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Interiors<br>
Engineering<br>
Construction</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy"><br>
<br>
</span><strong><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:green">Epstein is a firm believer in sustainability. We ask that you
please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.</span></strong></p>
</div>
<div>
<div align="center" style="margin-left:0in;text-align:center"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">
<hr size="2" width="100%" align="center">
</span></div>
<p><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ellen
Franconi<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 02, 2009 7:37 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Vikram Sami; Bldg-Sim; Michael I Rosenberg<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power</span></p>
</div>
<p> </p>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt">At
my firm, we proportion the baseline total fan power determined as an aggregated
W/CFM based on the hp assigned to the fan motors
(supply, return, exhaust) in the design documents. Of course this assumes
that your baseline and your proposed design have a one-to-one fan
correspondence. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Ellen</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Ellen
Franconi, Ph.D., LEED AP<br>
Senior Energy Analyst<br>
Architectural Energy Corporation<br>
2540 Frontier Avenue<br>
Boulder, CO 80301<br>
tel. 303-444-4149<br>
fax 303-444-4303<br>
<a href="mailto:efranconi@archenergy.com" target="_blank">efranconi@archenergy.com</a><br>
<a href="http://www.archenergy.com/" target="_blank">http://www.archenergy.com/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
>>> "Rosenberg, Michael I" <<a href="mailto:michael.rosenberg@pnl.gov" target="_blank">michael.rosenberg@pnl.gov</a>>
7/1/2009 4:48 PM >>></span></p>
</div>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt">You
have calculated the kW/cfm correctly according to the 2004 version of Appendix
G. The allowance actually goes up a little in 2007, for your case. As for the
second part of your question, no you do not apply the same kW/cfm to the exhaust
fan. The calculated allowed fan power the total allowed power for all fans that
are part of the system, including the exhaust fan. The cfm component is based
on the supply fan cfm only. Unfortunately, Appendix G gives no direction on how
to divide the allowed fan power up among the various fans in the system. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Mike</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span></p>
<div>
<p><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#D47500">__________________________</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""> </span></p>
<p><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Michael Rosenberg</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""> <br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Senior
Commercial Buildings Energy Analyst</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""> <br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt">ENERGY
& ENVIRONMENT DIRECTORATE </span></p>
</div>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Pacific
Northwest National Laboratory </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""><br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt">2032
Todd Street </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""><br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Eugene,
OR 97405 </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""><br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt">(541)
844-1960 </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""><br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a href="mailto:michael.rosenberg@pnl.gov" target="_blank">michael.rosenberg@pnl.gov</a> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""><br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#D47500"><a href="http://www.pnl.gov" target="_blank">www.pnl.gov</a></span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""> </span></p>
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<p><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Vikram Sami<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 01, 2009 3:03 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Bldg-Sim<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power</span></p>
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<p>G3.1.2.9 Gives you a formula for calculating system fan
electrical power for supply, return, exhaust and relief. Lets sat I have a zone
with a PSZ-HP that has a supply volume of 1500 cfm. Using this formula along
with table G3.1.2.9 I get a fan horse power of 1.29 and kW of 1.17. This
equates to 0.00078 kW/cfm – which seems really high. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>The second part to my question is assuming I have 500cfm of
exhaust in this zone, do I apply the same kW/cfm to the exhaust fans as well as
the return fans? It seems that the lower the fan volume the more inefficient the
Appendix G values get from these tables. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Any guidance would be much appreciated. </p>
<p> </p>
<p><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:black">Vikram
Sami,</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">
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