<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<STYLE type=text/css>DIV {
MARGIN: 0px
}
</STYLE>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.6000.16825" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=695374206-04062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2>Hi Ding,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=695374206-04062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=695374206-04062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2>I need to do a dynamic simulation, because the client wants to know how
many hours during the year, his demands regarding indoor climate are met.
However I won't do CFD calculations for a whole year, because of the computing
time. It's simply not possible. This is why I need a dynamic simulation tool
which can simulate varying temperature stratefication and different loads. Your
advice on using E+ is therefore taken ito concideration as well as
TRNSYS.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=695374206-04062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=695374206-04062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2>Both programs offer som output which can be imported into the CFD
calculations in order to glance at the draft rate in the occupied zone. For the
CFD calculations I will use your advice on using "Indoor zero equation" and see
how it works, as well as minimizing the amount of objects in the model so that I
can use the radiation module.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=695374206-04062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=695374206-04062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2>Thanks for your help and advice. Hope it works. :-)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN
style="mso-ansi-language: DA"><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN
style="mso-ansi-language: DA"><!-- Converted from text/rtf format -->
<P><B><SPAN lang=da><FONT face=Verdana size=1>Kind regards</FONT></SPAN></B>
</P><BR>
<P><B><SPAN lang=da><FONT face=Verdana size=1>Frederik Vildbrad Winther
(FRW)</FONT></SPAN></B><SPAN lang=da><BR><FONT face=Verdana size=1>M.Sc., Indoor
Environments</FONT></SPAN> <BR><SPAN lang=da><FONT face=Verdana size=1>Indoor
Climate and HVAC</FONT></SPAN> <BR><BR><SPAN lang=da><FONT face=Verdana
size=1>Rambøll Danmark A/S</FONT></SPAN> <BR><SPAN lang=da><FONT face=Verdana
size=1>Teknikerbyen 31</FONT></SPAN> <BR><SPAN lang=da><FONT face=Verdana
size=1>DK-2830 Virum</FONT></SPAN> <BR><SPAN lang=da><FONT face=Verdana
size=1><A href="http://www.ramboll.dk/">http://www.ramboll.dk</A><BR><BR>Direct
4598 6254<BR><A href="mailto:frw@ramboll.dk">mailto:frw@ramboll.dk</A>
</FONT></SPAN><BR><SPAN lang=da><FONT face=Verdana
size=1>__________________________________________________
</FONT></SPAN><BR><SPAN lang=da><FONT face=Verdana size=1>Knowledge taking
people further---</FONT></SPAN> </P></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><o:p> </o:p></DIV></DIV></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN>
<DIV> </DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Ding Li [mailto:dingli@ucla.edu]
<BR><B>Sent:</B> 3. juni 2009 17:51<BR><B>To:</B> Frederik Vildbrad Winther
(FRW); bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Bldg-sim] Links
between CFD or MZ and thermal simulations for simulating air and temperature
distributions in atria<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif">
<DIV>Frederik,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You are thinking too much. IMO, you don't need to do dynamic simulation.
You only need the worst case. If you want to do CFD simulation for a year, it's
almost impossible.. It takes forever for the calculation to finish. The industry
don't even calculate a year load to size the equipement, why do you need to?
Unless you want to do energy analysis for the building for the whole year, you
are not supposed to do that. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If you want to do energy modeling for the building for a year and you want
to include stratification effect, I know E+ and Trace have DV feature. Actually
Trace just released this feature about a month ago since it produced unexpected
result. You may try these two products.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>As for the stratification, it's not very sensitive to your input. If
you create the model correctly and the computation converges, the stratification
is quite stable. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>About the radiation, you need to choose the appropriate model. The
calculation time can be much longer if you have many objects in the model. It's
easy to take several days for one CFD model to finish from my experience.
<BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif">Ding
Li, PhD, P.E.</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif">Capital
Engineering Consultants Inc.<BR>11020 Sun Center Drive, Suite 100<BR>Rancho
Cordova, CA 95670</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif"><BR>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif"><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2>
<HR SIZE=1>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Frederik Vildbrad Winther
(FRW) <FRW@ramboll.dk><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Ding Li <dingli@ucla.edu>;
bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Tuesday, June 2, 2009 11:57:37
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> RE: [Bldg-sim]
Links between CFD or MZ and thermal simulations for simulating air and
temperature distributions in atria<BR></FONT><BR>
<STYLE type=text/css>DIV {
MARGIN: 0px
}
</STYLE>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=724252606-03062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2>Hi Ding,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=724252606-03062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=724252606-03062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2>With regards to importing the boundary conditions from the dynamic
(thermal) simulation, how do you take building mass into account. Some of the
external conditions i absorbed by the floors and walls. Can you get the CFD
calculations to take this factor into account when using CFD? I haven't heard of
this before. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=724252606-03062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=724252606-03062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2>Also the CFD results are only a predicted airflow and are extremely
sensitive to input parameters, and the flow is more or less steady state.
Therefore the CFD can only be used to illustrate what could possibly happen, and
to get an idea of the stratefication.. However as you mention with regards to
stratefication, I need a dynamic simulation which can calculate stratefication
relatively simple so that the stratefication would vary over time. E+ sounds
like a possibility, but if it only can calculate stratefication when using
displacement ventilation, then it becomes less attractive to use. Do you know of
any other software which can calculate stratefication? The Danish program BSim
has a fixed parameter for stratification so this program can not be used for
calculation over a whole year unless the calculation is divided up into smaller
parts, and the stratefication is changed manually, based on CFD
calculations.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=724252606-03062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=724252606-03062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2>I agree with you that it is important to include radiation! However it
takes longer to obtain convergance with this module "on". How do you manage to
calculate large rooms with many surfaces, and still including radiation?
Clustering of (many) computers?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN>Med
venlig hilsen</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN>Frederik
V. Winther</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN>Civilingeniør,
Indeklima og Energi</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN>Ingeniør</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN>Indeklima
og Miljø</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN>D
+45 4598 6254</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #009ee3; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN><A
title=FRW@RAMBOLL.DK href="mailto:frw@ramboll.dk" target=_blank rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:frw@ramboll.dk"><SPAN
style="COLOR: #009ee3; TEXT-DECORATION: none">frw@ramboll.dk</SPAN></A></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN>________________________________________</SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN>Rambøll</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN>Teknikerbyen
31</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN>DK-2830
Virum</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #009ee3; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN><A
title=WWW.RAMBOLL.DK href="http://www.ramboll.dk/" target=_blank
rel=nofollow><SPAN
style="COLOR: #009ee3; TEXT-DECORATION: none">www.ramboll.dk</SPAN></A></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN>
<DIV> </DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Ding Li [mailto:dingli@ucla.edu]
<BR><B>Sent:</B> 3. juni 2009 02:41<BR><B>To:</B> Frederik Vildbrad Winther
(FRW); Paul Carey; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[Bldg-sim] Links between CFD or MZ and thermal simulations for simulating air
and temperature distributions in atria<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif">
<DIV>I put my comments in blue below.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Ding Li, PhD, PE<BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif">Capital
Engineering Consultants Inc.<BR>11020 Sun Center Drive, Suite 100<BR>Rancho
Cordova, CA 95670</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif">Tel:
<SPAN class=yshortcuts id=lw_1244042660_3>916-851-3579</SPAN><BR>Fax: <SPAN
class=yshortcuts id=lw_1244042660_4>916-631-4424</SPAN><BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif"><BR>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif"><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2>
<HR SIZE=1>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Frederik Vildbrad Winther
(FRW) <FRW@ramboll.dk><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Paul Carey <paul@zed-uk.com>;
bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Tuesday, June 2, 2009 6:35:38
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Bldg-sim]
Links between CFD or MZ and thermal simulations for simulating air and
temperature distributions in atria<BR></FONT><BR>
<STYLE>UNKNOWN {
FONT-FAMILY: Cambria Math
}
UNKNOWN {
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri
}
UNKNOWN {
FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma
}
UNKNOWN {
FONT-FAMILY: Verdana
}
UNKNOWN {
FONT-FAMILY: MS Reference Sans Serif
}
UNKNOWN {
MARGIN: 72pt
}
P.MsoNormal {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman", "serif"
}
LI.MsoNormal {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman", "serif"
}
DIV.MsoNormal {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman", "serif"
}
A:link {
COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline
}
SPAN.MsoHyperlink {
COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline
}
A:visited {
COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline
}
SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {
COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline
}
P {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0cm; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0cm; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman", "serif"
}
P.MsoAcetate {
FONT-SIZE: 8pt; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma", "sans-serif"
}
LI.MsoAcetate {
FONT-SIZE: 8pt; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma", "sans-serif"
}
DIV.MsoAcetate {
FONT-SIZE: 8pt; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma", "sans-serif"
}
SPAN.EmailStyle18 {
COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri", "sans-serif"
}
SPAN.BalloonTextChar {
FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma", "sans-serif"
}
.MsoChpDefault {
FONT-SIZE: 10pt
}
DIV.Section1 {
}
</STYLE>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683285912-02062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2>Hi Paul,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683285912-02062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683285912-02062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2>Thanks for your reply. I haven't heard about DesignBuilder CFD before and
I have only heard and peaked to EnergyPlus. EnergyPlus seems OK for simulating
multizones and thermal simulations. Do you know how it handles stratification? I
am thinking of using thermal simulations, with a good link to a multizone
program so that the 2 programs can predict the air movement as well as the
stratification in the room. I am then thinking of doing 4 CFD studies and these
simulations should have input from the thermal simulation. The output from the
CFD simulations should then be compared to the results from the thermal
simulation. The two calculations should therefor be reasonably comparable (in
the end).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683285912-02062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2></FONT></SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff>DesignBuilder just released v2. I'm
not quite familiar with its CFD module, but I believe DB was mainly used with
E+. If you want to achieve stratification, you have to use some CFD package. E+
has a DV module which may have stratification feature, but that's only for DV.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683285912-02062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2>I think that the use LES turbulence model for indoor climate analysis is
rather hazardous because this turbulence model is mostly used for fire and smoke
simulations. I have obtained good results for indoor climate using ke-turbulence
model. Is my thought "out of date" on this point? Does ke-turbulence model also
work for larger rooms? When can/should LES-turbulence model be used, apart from
smoke/fire simulations? The problem is also getting a thermal simulation
program, which can import the results from a CFD calculation.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683285912-02062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683285912-02062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2>Using the transient calculations could prove very useful in showing the
uncertainty in the CFD calculations. However, can I, when importing the boundary
conditions from the thermal simulation to the CFD simulation, import the
temperature stratefication as a start condition for the simulation? What is your
experience on coupling thermal/multizone simulations with CFD calculations? Does
it work? It could be very useful if the CFD calculation starts with the same
boundary conditions and results from the thermal simulation, rather than
starting from scratch every time a CFD analysis has to be
performed.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683285912-02062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff>I'm not sure the exact meaning of
your "thermal simulation". If you refer to the mechanical load calculation
software, eg. Trane trace or other heating/cooling software, the answer is yes.
You can calculate the heat flux at the exterior wall/roof/floor and then import
them into your CFD model. But you need to verify the CFD result carefully since
the setpoint may be different from the result of your CFD modeling. This could
cause some inaccurate result.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683285912-02062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2>Do you know of any papers dealing with modeling of solar gain in CFD
tools?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN>Med
venlig hilsen</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN>Frederik
V. Winther</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN>Civilingeniør,
Indeklima og Energi</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN>Ingeniør</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN>Indeklima
og Miljø</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN>D
+45 4598 6254</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #009ee3; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN><A
title=FRW@RAMBOLL.DK href="mailto:frw@ramboll.dk" target=_blank rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:frw@ramboll.dk"><SPAN
style="COLOR: #009ee3; TEXT-DECORATION: none">frw@ramboll.dk</SPAN></A></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN>________________________________________</SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN>Rambøll</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN>Teknikerbyen
31</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN>DK-2830
Virum</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #009ee3; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN><A
title=WWW.RAMBOLL.DK href="http://www.ramboll.dk/" target=_blank
rel=nofollow><SPAN
style="COLOR: #009ee3; TEXT-DECORATION: none">www.ramboll.dk</SPAN></A></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN>
<DIV> </DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Paul Carey [mailto:paul@zed-uk.com]
<BR><B>Sent:</B> 29. maj 2009 16:49<BR><B>To:</B> Frederik Vildbrad Winther
(FRW); bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Bldg-sim] Links
between CFD or MZ and thermal simulations for simulating air and temperature
distributions in atria<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">Hi
Frederik,</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">DesignBuilder
CFD would allow you to come up with an EnergyPlus multizone air flow linked
thermal simulation coupled with a steady state CFD solution. This has
recently been released and is a cost-effective way of linking the 2. If
you used DesignBuilder to develop the energy model/Steady State CFD solution
carried out and then use their model export options to give you the model upon
which to then import it into a more complex transient CFD tool should it be
necessary. To some extent you could argue whether or not you need the
transient analysis as the dynamic simulations should give you the temporal
solution for the airflow and then you could look at what happens for say peak or
mean flow conditions perhaps. But I’d suggest that it might well be worth
it from what you are describing as even a well set up thermal multizone model
would do most of what you describe, but the thermal stratification issues are
going to be a sticking point for most simulation tools, both Dynamic or CFD to
some extent.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">If
you really wanted to see the time effects of the Solar Gain on airflows, etc,
there are many CFD tools available that would be able to do this, obviously all
the major CFD engines would do this comfortably (Airpak from Ansys Fluent most
easily I suspect with its integrated solar gain modelling tool) but they are
going to be quite expensive and there is quite a learning curve to some of
them.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">Alternatively,
you could use something like PyroSim, which is a good front end for NIST that
would probably be suitable. NIST does transient analysis and is used
commonly for smoke/fire analysis. It uses LES turbulence models from
memory and so would be likely to be more accurate for the sort of stratified
flows you’d get in an Atria as well. You could then set transient
boundaries based on files of data exported by the dynamic engine. Might
take a bit of work, but it should work.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">Regards</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">Paul</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<TABLE class=MsoTableGrid
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse"
cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; WIDTH: 162.3pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm"
vAlign=top width=216 rowSpan=2>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"><IMG
id=Picture_x0020_1 height=154 width=142></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; WIDTH: 158.55pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm"
vAlign=top width=211>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">Dr
Paul Carey</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">Director</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">Low
Carbon Energy Assessor</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P></TD>
<TD
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; WIDTH: 157.95pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm"
vAlign=top width=211>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">Zero
Energy Design Ltd</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">10A
Portland Place</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">2-22
Mottram Road</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">Stalybridge</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">SK15
3AD</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; WIDTH: 158.55pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm"
vAlign=top width=211>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">T:
0161 3386200</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">F:
0161 3031281</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">M:
0789 4098012</SPAN></P></TD>
<TD
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; WIDTH: 157.95pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm"
vAlign=top width=211>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">E:
paul@zed-uk.com</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">W:
<A href="http://www.zed-uk.com/" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>www.zed-uk.com</A></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; WIDTH: 162.3pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm"
vAlign=top width=216>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"><IMG
id=Picture_x0020_2 height=81 width=200></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P></TD>
<TD
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; WIDTH: 158.55pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm"
vAlign=top width=211>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P></TD>
<TD
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; WIDTH: 157.95pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm"
vAlign=top width=211>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-TOP: 0cm"
vAlign=top width=216>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"><IMG
id=Picture_x0020_3 height=88 width=110></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">Certificate
No: GB16647</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P></TD>
<TD
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; WIDTH: 158.55pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm"
vAlign=top width=211>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"><IMG
id=Picture_x0020_4 height=88 width=110></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">Certificate
No: GB16646</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN></P></TD>
<TD
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; WIDTH: 157.95pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm"
vAlign=top width=211>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: green; FONT-FAMILY: 'MS Reference Sans Serif', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: green; FONT-FAMILY: 'MS Reference Sans Serif', 'sans-serif'">Please
carefully consider the environment before you print this email.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: green; FONT-FAMILY: 'MS Reference Sans Serif', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana', 'sans-serif'">Company
Registered in England & Wales. Registration No. 5815068</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana', 'sans-serif'">Registered
Address: 10A Portland Place, 2-22 Mottram Road, Stalybridge, SK15 3AD,
UK.</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US style="COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><U><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana', 'sans-serif'">Privilege
and Confidentiality Notice:</SPAN></U><U><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 486pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana', 'sans-serif'">This
email and any attachments to it are intended only for the party to whom they are
addressed. They may contain privileged and/or
confidential information. If you have received this transmission in
error, please notify the sender immediately and delete any digital copies and
destroy any paper copies. Thank you.</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma', 'sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma', 'sans-serif'">
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Frederik
Vildbrad Winther (FRW)<BR><B>Sent:</B> 29 May 2009 13:17<BR><B>To:</B>
bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Bldg-sim] Links between CFD
or MZ and thermal simulations for simulating air and temperature distributions
in atria</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana', 'sans-serif'">Hi,</SPAN><SPAN
lang=DA> </SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana', 'sans-serif'">I am
currently starting up on simulating a relatively large atrium in Denmark (app.
55°N) with a glazed roof (sloped towards the sun - clever), open balconies with
working areas connected to the atrium, as well as a smaller atrium with smaller
openings connecting the two atria together with each other.<B> The main focus in
the simulation is first of all the air velocity and temperature distribution in
the occupied zone and on the balconies - describing the thermal comfort as well
as draft rate.</B> The next focus is on integrating the smaller atria as a heat
exchanger in winter time as well as analyzing if this can be used for cooling in
summer time, transporting the air from outside to the biggest atrium, via the
smaller atrium with little heating of the air. The calculations I want to
perform in CFD also regards simulations of the solar gain in the biggest atrium.
However simulating radiation in CFD simulations require more computing power for
bigger rooms with a lot of surfaces. Any advice on simulating solar gain in CFD?
How can this dynamic gain be simulated in CFD? Another cool thing in this atrium
would be the heat recovery of the extracted air in the top part of the
atrium.</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana', 'sans-serif'">Simulating
this in a thermal simulation software requires a lot of luck to obtain the
correct (and true) result in the first couple of simulations. However I am
thinking of integrating the results from a CFD calculation into the thermal
simulation. I am thinking of doing this as an iterative process, integrating the
results from CFD when needed in the thermal simulations. This will probably
result in at least 4 different simulations over a whole year, giving detailed
results (temperature gradient, flow between zones, convective heat-transfer
coefficients etc.) which can be used in the thermal simulation for these 4
periods over a year. As mentioned above simulating radiation in CFD is tough, I
am thinking of leaving this calculation in the thermal simulation.</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana', 'sans-serif'">Another
simpler setup would be the integration of a multi-zone calculation in the
thermal simulation giving a more coarse result of the main flow route in the
atrium and mixing between balconies and the atrium. However these results could
potentially give the same detailed results I am looking for.</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana', 'sans-serif'">Finally
has any one worked on an uncertainty analysis of these coupling methods
illustrating first of all the uncertainty in the results as well as the
sensitivity in the input parameters?</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana', 'sans-serif'">Has
anyone done something like this before and what tools were used? I have been
given free hands with regards to choice of software so any feedback on this
subject will be useful. I'm really looking forward to hear from you
:-)</SPAN></P>
<P><B><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana', 'sans-serif'">Kind
regards</SPAN></B><SPAN lang=DA> </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P><B><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana', 'sans-serif'">Frederik Vildbrad
Winther (FRW)</SPAN></B><SPAN lang=DA><BR></SPAN><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana', 'sans-serif'">M.Sc., Indoor
Environments</SPAN> <BR><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana', 'sans-serif'">Indoor Climate
and HVAC</SPAN> <BR><BR><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana', 'sans-serif'">Rambøll Danmark
A/S</SPAN> <BR><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana', 'sans-serif'">Teknikerbyen
31</SPAN> <BR><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana', 'sans-serif'">DK-2830
Virum</SPAN> <BR><A href="http://www.ramboll.dk/" target=_blank
rel=nofollow><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana', 'sans-serif'">http://www.ramboll.dk</SPAN></A><SPAN
lang=DA><BR><BR></SPAN><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana', 'sans-serif'">Direct 4598
6254<BR></SPAN><A href="mailto:frw@ramboll.dk" target=_blank rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:frw@ramboll.dk"><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana', 'sans-serif'">mailto:frw@ramboll.dk</SPAN></A><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana', 'sans-serif'"> </SPAN><BR><SPAN
lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana', 'sans-serif'">__________________________________________________
</SPAN><BR><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana', 'sans-serif'">Knowledge taking
people further---</SPAN><SPAN lang=DA>
</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR></BODY></HTML>