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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683285912-02062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2>Hi Paul,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683285912-02062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683285912-02062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2>Thanks for your reply. I haven't heard about DesignBuilder CFD before and
I have only heard and peaked to EnergyPlus. EnergyPlus seems OK for simulating
multizones and thermal simulations. Do you know how it handles stratification? I
am thinking of using thermal simulations, with a good link to a multizone
program so that the 2 programs can predict the air movement as well as the
stratification in the room. I am then thinking of doing 4 CFD studies and these
simulations should have input from the thermal simulation. The output from the
CFD simulations should then be compared to the results from the thermal
simulation. The two calculations should therefor be reasonably comparable (in
the end).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683285912-02062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683285912-02062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2>I think that the use LES turbulence model for indoor climate analysis is
rather hazardous because this turbulence model is mostly used for fire and smoke
simulations. I have obtained good results for indoor climate using ke-turbulence
model. Is my thought "out of date" on this point? Does ke-turbulence model also
work for larger rooms? When can/should LES-turbulence model be used, apart from
smoke/fire simulations? The problem is also getting a thermal simulation
program, which can import the results from a CFD calculation.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683285912-02062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683285912-02062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2>Using the transient calculations could prove very useful in showing the
uncertainty in the CFD calculations. However, can I, when importing the boundary
conditions from the thermal simulation to the CFD simulation, import the
temperature stratefication as a start condition for the simulation? What is your
experience on coupling thermal/multizone simulations with CFD calculations? Does
it work? It could be very useful if the CFD calculation starts with the same
boundary conditions and results from the thermal simulation, rather than
starting from scratch every time a CFD analysis has to be
performed.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683285912-02062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683285912-02062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2>Do you know of any papers dealing with modeling of solar gain in CFD
tools?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: #000000; LINE-HEIGHT: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><SPAN
style="mso-ansi-language: DA"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
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style="mso-ansi-language: DA">Med venlig hilsen<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
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style="mso-ansi-language: DA">Frederik V. Winther<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
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<DIV><SPAN
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style="mso-ansi-language: DA">Civilingeniør, Indeklima og
Energi<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
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style="mso-ansi-language: DA">Ingeniør<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
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style="mso-ansi-language: DA">Indeklima og Miljø<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
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style="mso-ansi-language: DA">D +45 4598 6254<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV> </DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Paul Carey [mailto:paul@zed-uk.com]
<BR><B>Sent:</B> 29. maj 2009 16:49<BR><B>To:</B> Frederik Vildbrad Winther
(FRW); bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Bldg-sim] Links
between CFD or MZ and thermal simulations for simulating air and temperature
distributions in atria<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Hi
Frederik,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">DesignBuilder
CFD would allow you to come up with an EnergyPlus multizone air flow linked
thermal simulation coupled with a steady state CFD solution. This has
recently been released and is a cost-effective way of linking the 2. If
you used DesignBuilder to develop the energy model/Steady State CFD solution
carried out and then use their model export options to give you the model upon
which to then import it into a more complex transient CFD tool should it be
necessary. To some extent you could argue whether or not you need the
transient analysis as the dynamic simulations should give you the temporal
solution for the airflow and then you could look at what happens for say peak or
mean flow conditions perhaps. But I’d suggest that it might well be worth
it from what you are describing as even a well set up thermal multizone model
would do most of what you describe, but the thermal stratification issues are
going to be a sticking point for most simulation tools, both Dynamic or CFD to
some extent.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">If
you really wanted to see the time effects of the Solar Gain on airflows, etc,
there are many CFD tools available that would be able to do this, obviously all
the major CFD engines would do this comfortably (Airpak from Ansys Fluent most
easily I suspect with its integrated solar gain modelling tool) but they are
going to be quite expensive and there is quite a learning curve to some of
them.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Alternatively,
you could use something like PyroSim, which is a good front end for NIST that
would probably be suitable. NIST does transient analysis and is used
commonly for smoke/fire analysis. It uses LES turbulence models from
memory and so would be likely to be more accurate for the sort of stratified
flows you’d get in an Atria as well. You could then set transient
boundaries based on files of data exported by the dynamic engine. Might
take a bit of work, but it should work.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Regards<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
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<DIV>
<DIV
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Frederik
Vildbrad Winther (FRW)<BR><B>Sent:</B> 29 May 2009 13:17<BR><B>To:</B>
bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Bldg-sim] Links between CFD
or MZ and thermal simulations for simulating air and temperature distributions
in atria<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">Hi,</SPAN><SPAN
lang=DA> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">I am
currently starting up on simulating a relatively large atrium in Denmark (app.
55°N) with a glazed roof (sloped towards the sun - clever), open balconies with
working areas connected to the atrium, as well as a smaller atrium with smaller
openings connecting the two atria together with each other.<B> The main focus in
the simulation is first of all the air velocity and temperature distribution in
the occupied zone and on the balconies - describing the thermal comfort as well
as draft rate.</B> The next focus is on integrating the smaller atria as a heat
exchanger in winter time as well as analyzing if this can be used for cooling in
summer time, transporting the air from outside to the biggest atrium, via the
smaller atrium with little heating of the air. The calculations I want to
perform in CFD also regards simulations of the solar gain in the biggest atrium.
However simulating radiation in CFD simulations require more computing power for
bigger rooms with a lot of surfaces. Any advice on simulating solar gain in CFD?
How can this dynamic gain be simulated in CFD? Another cool thing in this atrium
would be the heat recovery of the extracted air in the top part of the
atrium.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">Simulating
this in a thermal simulation software requires a lot of luck to obtain the
correct (and true) result in the first couple of simulations. However I am
thinking of integrating the results from a CFD calculation into the thermal
simulation. I am thinking of doing this as an iterative process, integrating the
results from CFD when needed in the thermal simulations. This will probably
result in at least 4 different simulations over a whole year, giving detailed
results (temperature gradient, flow between zones, convective heat-transfer
coefficients etc.) which can be used in the thermal simulation for these 4
periods over a year. As mentioned above simulating radiation in CFD is tough, I
am thinking of leaving this calculation in the thermal
simulation.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">Another
simpler setup would be the integration of a multi-zone calculation in the
thermal simulation giving a more coarse result of the main flow route in the
atrium and mixing between balconies and the atrium. However these results could
potentially give the same detailed results I am looking
for.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">Finally
has any one worked on an uncertainty analysis of these coupling methods
illustrating first of all the uncertainty in the results as well as the
sensitivity in the input parameters?</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">Has
anyone done something like this before and what tools were used? I have been
given free hands with regards to choice of software so any feedback on this
subject will be useful. I'm really looking forward to hear from you
:-)</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P><B><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">Kind
regards</SPAN></B><SPAN lang=DA> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P><B><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">Frederik Vildbrad
Winther (FRW)</SPAN></B><SPAN lang=DA><BR></SPAN><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">M.Sc., Indoor
Environments</SPAN> <BR><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">Indoor Climate and
HVAC</SPAN> <BR><BR><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">Rambøll Danmark
A/S</SPAN> <BR><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">Teknikerbyen
31</SPAN> <BR><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">DK-2830
Virum</SPAN> <BR><A href="http://www.ramboll.dk"><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">http://www.ramboll.dk</SPAN></A><SPAN
lang=DA><BR><BR></SPAN><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">Direct 4598
6254<BR></SPAN><A href="mailto:frw@ramboll.dk"><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">mailto:frw@ramboll.dk</SPAN></A><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><BR><SPAN
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