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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=010594208-02062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2>Hi Peter,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=010594208-02062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=010594208-02062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2>Thanks for your reply on the matter. I have began looking a little at
TRNSYS, and from what you are describing about its air movement analysis, it
sounds tempting to use this program for the dynamic simulation. How does TRNSYS
model the temperature stratification in the atrium? Can it predict the air flow
if the solar gain is "captured" by interior screens at the top of the atrium,
(which thereby adds to the air movement at this location) instead of the solar
gain being added near the walls and floors by tracking the solar
irradiation? What about diffuse radiation? <STRONG>In short: What is your
experience using TRNSYS? </STRONG>Can it do what you want it to do? What about
stratification?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=010594208-02062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=010594208-02062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2>My client expects presentation of results regarding temperature in the
occupied zone as well as air velocity. However I will not make a CFD stating
that the air velocity on the occupied zone is 0,1435 m/s (...which is shown in
this CFD calculation etc. ...) because the calculation is only steady state and
is not valid for a whole year, because of the uncertainties in the input in the
CFD calculations. Moreover I can't present the results from the thermal
calculations as these are very uncertain due to the uncertainty about
stratification in the atria. Can TRNSYS take care of these problems?
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=010594208-02062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=010594208-02062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2>I would rather not make more than 4 CFD simulations, and the simulations
should have the necessary input from TRNSYS in order to achieve the correct
results more or less in the first simulation. What's your comment on transient
simulation? Is it worthwhile? From what I know of these simulations, the
computing time is more or less the same as the results are based on the constant
boundary conditions and is therefore only showing the uncertainties in the
solving of the different differential equations. The results presented in the
transient calculations can then be used to illustrate the variation of the
results... or can it?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=010594208-02062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=010594208-02062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2>The CFD calculations are extremely expensive and if it is to be of any
use for any client the uncertainties should also be presented. Your efforts on
LA courthouse confirms that CFD is expensive. When was this work done? What was
the tasks on this building? It would be nice if I could glance at the papers you
made at that time. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=010594208-02062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=010594208-02062009><FONT face=Verdana
size=2>I haven't been able to find the program "ROOM"? Do you have a link?
Thanks for your help.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=010594208-02062009></SPAN><SPAN
class=010594208-02062009></SPAN><SPAN class=010594208-02062009></SPAN><SPAN
class=010594208-02062009></SPAN><SPAN class=010594208-02062009><FONT
face=Verdana size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=Section1><SPAN
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<DIV class=MsoNormal><o:p><!-- Converted from text/rtf format -->
<P><B><SPAN lang=da><FONT face=Verdana size=1>Kind regards</FONT></SPAN></B>
</P><BR>
<P><B><SPAN lang=da><FONT face=Verdana size=1>Frederik Vildbrad Winther
(FRW)</FONT></SPAN></B><SPAN lang=da><BR><FONT face=Verdana size=1>M.Sc., Indoor
Environments</FONT></SPAN> <BR><SPAN lang=da><FONT face=Verdana size=1>Indoor
Climate and HVAC</FONT></SPAN> <BR><BR><SPAN lang=da><FONT face=Verdana
size=1>Rambøll Danmark A/S</FONT></SPAN> <BR><SPAN lang=da><FONT face=Verdana
size=1>Teknikerbyen 31</FONT></SPAN> <BR><SPAN lang=da><FONT face=Verdana
size=1>DK-2830 Virum</FONT></SPAN> <BR><SPAN lang=da><FONT face=Verdana
size=1><A href="http://www.ramboll.dk/">http://www.ramboll.dk</A><BR><BR>Direct
4598 6254<BR><A href="mailto:frw@ramboll.dk">mailto:frw@ramboll.dk</A>
</FONT></SPAN><BR><SPAN lang=da><FONT face=Verdana
size=1>__________________________________________________
</FONT></SPAN><BR><SPAN lang=da><FONT face=Verdana size=1>Knowledge taking
people further---</FONT></SPAN>
</P> </o:p></DIV></DIV></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN>
<DIV> </DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Peter Simmonds
[mailto:peter.simmonds@ibece.net] <BR><B>Sent:</B> 29. maj 2009
17:16<BR><B>To:</B> Frederik Vildbrad Winther (FRW);
bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Bldg-sim] Links between
CFD or MZ and thermal simulations forsimulating air and temperature
distributions in atria<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Frederik, I have worked
on a couple of large atrium projects over the years. You did ask for comments
and suggestions so here goes:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">You need a tool that
can predict conditions in a quite complicated space and looking at you location
you will have two major problems:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<OL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" type=1>
<LI class=MsoNormal style="COLOR: navy; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1"><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">downdraft and cold radiation
during the winter<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT>
<LI class=MsoNormal style="COLOR: navy; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1"><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">high radiation surface and
possible stratification during the summer.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </LI></OL>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I model the space with
ROOM (ARUP Rand D, Mike Holmes and Andrew White) or lately TRNSYS. This enables
me to set up heat balances and run fairly quickly (once the models have been
built), and provide what if scenarios for both summer and winter. ROOM enables
me to look at radiation exchange in the space and occupant comfort, as well as
stratification. TRNSYS will allow analysis of air movement within the space,
this is especially important when heating the space in
winter.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Once these have been
completed you can step to CFD (Colours for Directors), at this point I will
probably get shot down, but most of the CFD programs I know are steady state, so
for one moment in time. The next problem is the complexity of the space, the
grids and the number of cells all of which increase the validity of the results
and drastically increase computational time. For example CFD runs for the atrium
in the LA courthouse were between 56 to 72 hours
each.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I think you need to
work out what results you require and the level of accuracy of these results. Is
this a design problem or an academic project?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">We published a paper on
temperatures and bulk air movement for a large atrium in a hospital in the
<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Netherlands</st1:place></st1:country-region>, which had a large glazed
roof and numerous openings, this was about 15 years ago and is published in
ASHRAE transactions. I also presented a paper on a large atrium/shopping mall in
<st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Warsaw</st1:place></st1:City> at the
opening of DTU new labs in 2001. The LA courthouse data has never been published
as it is the property of the client, but I may be able to find some of the
results for you. To give you some idea of the costs and time involved for this
particular analysis, the CFD analysis alone was in the order of $120,000 and our
effort, temperature, air movement, thermal comfort and stratification as well as
writing a report, that could be understood by the client another $240,000 and we
didn’t make any profit.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I hope this helps, if
not let me know what else you need, good luck.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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w:st="on"><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
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Simmonds</SPAN></FONT></st1:PersonName><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">.
Ph.D.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=gray size=1><SPAN
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Frederik Vildbrad Winther
(FRW)<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, May 29,
2009 5:17 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [Bldg-sim] Links between CFD or MZ
and thermal simulations forsimulating air and temperature distributions in
atria</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Verdana color=black size=2><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Hi,</SPAN></FONT><SPAN
lang=DA> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P><FONT face=Verdana color=black size=2><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">I am currently
starting up on simulating a relatively large atrium in Denmark (app. 55°N) with
a glazed roof (sloped towards the sun - clever), open balconies with working
areas connected to the atrium, as well as a smaller atrium with smaller openings
connecting the two atria together with each other.<B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"> The main focus in the simulation is first of all the
air velocity and temperature distribution in the occupied zone and on the
balconies - describing the thermal comfort as well as draft rate.</SPAN></B> The
next focus is on integrating the smaller atria as a heat exchanger in winter
time as well as analyzing if this can be used for cooling in summer time,
transporting the air from outside to the biggest atrium, via the smaller atrium
with little heating of the air. The calculations I want to perform in CFD also
regards simulations of the solar gain in the biggest atrium. However simulating
radiation in CFD simulations require more computing power for bigger rooms with
a lot of surfaces. Any advice on simulating solar gain in CFD? How can this
dynamic gain be simulated in CFD? Another cool thing in this atrium would be the
heat recovery of the extracted air in the top part of the
atrium.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<P><FONT face=Verdana color=black size=2><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Simulating this in a
thermal simulation software requires a lot of luck to obtain the correct (and
true) result in the first couple of simulations. However I am thinking of
integrating the results from a CFD calculation into the thermal simulation. I am
thinking of doing this as an iterative process, integrating the results from CFD
when needed in the thermal simulations. This will probably result in at least 4
different simulations over a whole year, giving detailed results (temperature
gradient, flow between zones, convective heat-transfer coefficients etc.) which
can be used in the thermal simulation for these 4 periods over a year. As
mentioned above simulating radiation in CFD is tough, I am thinking of leaving
this calculation in the thermal simulation.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<P><FONT face=Verdana color=black size=2><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Another simpler
setup would be the integration of a multi-zone calculation in the thermal
simulation giving a more coarse result of the main flow route in the atrium and
mixing between balconies and the atrium. However these results could potentially
give the same detailed results I am looking for.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<P><FONT face=Verdana color=black size=2><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Finally has any one
worked on an uncertainty analysis of these coupling methods illustrating first
of all the uncertainty in the results as well as the sensitivity in the input
parameters?</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<P><FONT face=Verdana color=black size=2><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Has anyone done
something like this before and what tools were used? I have been given free
hands with regards to choice of software so any feedback on this subject will be
useful. I'm really looking forward to hear from you
:-)</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<P><B><FONT face=Verdana size=1><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Kind
regards</SPAN></FONT></B><SPAN lang=DA> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><B><FONT face=Verdana size=1><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Frederik
Vildbrad Winther (FRW)</SPAN></FONT></B><SPAN lang=DA><BR></SPAN><FONT
face=Verdana size=1><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">M.Sc., Indoor
Environments</SPAN></FONT> <BR><FONT face=Verdana size=1><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Indoor Climate and
HVAC</SPAN></FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=Verdana size=1><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Rambøll Danmark A/S</SPAN></FONT>
<BR><FONT face=Verdana size=1><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Teknikerbyen 31</SPAN></FONT>
<BR><FONT face=Verdana size=1><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">DK-2830 Virum</SPAN></FONT>
<BR><A href="http://www.ramboll.dk"><FONT face=Verdana size=1><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">http://www.ramboll.dk</SPAN></FONT></A><SPAN
lang=DA><BR><BR></SPAN><FONT face=Verdana size=1><SPAN lang=DA
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Direct 4598
6254<BR></SPAN></FONT><A href="mailto:frw@ramboll.dk"><FONT face=Verdana
size=1><SPAN lang=DA
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