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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>USGBC does allow calculations outside the model for end uses
which do not impact other end uses such as exterior lighting or domestic hot
water. If the cooling central plant can be completely isolated and you can
demonstrate that the loads placed on it are exactly the same in both models then
it may be allowed. In order to do this with a high degree of accuracy you may have
to build virtually the same model in both versions of the software. You would also
need to very thoroughly explain your modeling procedures and calculations. By
the time you did all that my guess is that you would be better off just
submitting the whole model in eQUEST instead of justifying the combination.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>So as a LEED reviewer I would be highly skeptical of the
scenario you suggest and would likely scrutinize it to a significantly higher
degree compared to all calculations in one model. As I understand it IES-VE
does not yet model water cooled systems very well so I might suggest that it is
simply not an appropriate modeling tool to use for this particular project.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Marcus Sheffer<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>7group<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>m.lebourhis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 19, 2009 7:14 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [SPAM] Re: [Bldg-sim] One model<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=FR style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Hi all,</span><span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=FR style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>I am also currently working with IES-VE for LEED energy modeling. I
am finding it very efficient to compute the loads on the project I am working
on, which is quite huge and relatively complex in terms of geometry/envelope.</span><span
lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>However, it gets harder to model the water chilling plant as
required by Appendix G, and I am actually doing this part of the modelling with
my own excel calculation sheets and with DOE-2 curves. </span><span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>I was wondering; how will this approach be received by the USGBC?
Could they possibly require that the whole modeling is carried out with a
single package? Has anyone had problems validating EA1 with part of the energy
modelling being external to the simulation tool?</span><span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>I have also been thinking of somehow using EnergyPlus or eQuest
(preferably the latter) just for the water chilling plant modeling. Has anyone
ever used one of these two tools to compute the systems energy from a cooling
demand calculated in an other simulation package?</span><span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Regards</span><span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Mathieu Le Bourhis</span><span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span lang=FR>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=FR style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>De :</span></b><span
lang=FR style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>De la part de</b> Field,
Kristin<br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> jeudi 12 mars 2009 21:40<br>
<b>À :</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Objet :</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] One model</span><span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=FR> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>I tried out IES-VE a few months or a year ago with some people
because the potential for this type of integration seemed very exciting.
However, we found the HVAC side to be pretty basic. For a lot of building
types, there are significant savings to be had by changing HVAC control schemes
and/or configurations and using HVAC types that were not well-represented in
IES-VE the last time I saw it. It seemed like a great interface to use if
you were trying to design a building to use minimal energy due to envelope,
orientation, natural ventilation, etc. In other words, it seems strong on
the loads calculation side. On the system use side, though, it seemed a
lot more limited than DOE2 or EnergyPlus. For that reason, I have also
stuck with the multiple-tools method. I agree with all who wrote that it
would be wonderful to have one integrated tool in the future! Rob does
bring up an interesting point about the resolution of spaces needed for
daylighting vs. thermal vs. architectural modeling. Architects especially
have to be so detailed in their models that I’ve often just ended up
using the floor plans they provided, deleting a bunch of elements out of those,
and scaling wall heights and windows. Other than that, their 3D models
only serve to help me visualize the building myself. It would be nice if
we didn’t end up tripling the effort like we all do now, but so far I
don’t see a great way around it (unless you don’t need complex
system modeling – then you could use IES-VE as discussed below).</span><span
lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Kristin Field</span><span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>CARNEY Ronan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 11, 2009 10:34 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Rob Guglielmetti; Ross Harding<br>
<b>Cc:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] One model</span><span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Actually, I'm utilising IES to do HVAC design, Energy Analysis, PMV
calc, lighting lux design, lighting power intensity design and natural daylight
analysis all in line with the Australian Standards and Green Star (another form
of LEED) requirements. </span><span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Although the software costs money, I've found it to be worthwhile
battling against it's flaws and it gives us the results which we require. </span><span
lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><strong><u><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Please note, this is a one model approach</span></u></strong><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>. It's
easy to start a project at CD (concept design) stage within Google Sketchup and
to utilise the freeware version of IES to do alternate design analysis.
However, it's way better if the full suite is purchases and the model is
crossed over into IES. Within IES multiple analysis and detailed designs can be
modelled quickly and with fantastic final project results. I know, I've done
it.</span><span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Also with the daylight analysis, if you've got a detailed building
with over 100000 surfaces, it's going to take forever to do the analysis,
that's my only issue with the software. However, the software is developing
multithreading facility within it's software, therefore decreasing the time for
analysis dramatically.</span><span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Should anyone want to discuss my approaches further, and are in
Brisbane, I welcome the opportunity to meet and greet with you.</span><span
lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b><i><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>Regards,</span></i></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
<b><i>Ronan Carney</i></b><br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Complex'>Electrical Engineer</span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:maroon'>Project Services</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:blue'>*</span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:purple'>Level 5B
80 George St</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:purple'>Brisbane</span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:blue'>(</span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Ph:</span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif"'>(07) 3224 5983</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
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style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Fax: (07) 3224 6151</span><span
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</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:blue'>,</span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Email<span
style='color:blue'>:</span></span><u><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></u><a
href="mailto:Ronan.Carney@projectservices.qld.gov.au"
title="mailto:Ronan.Carney@projectservices.qld.gov.au"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Ronan.Carney@projectservices.qld.gov.au</span></a>
<span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Rob
Guglielmetti<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, 12 March 2009 1:12 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ross Harding<br>
<b>Cc:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] One model</span><span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Mar 11, 2009, at 6:09 PM, Ross Harding wrote:<span
lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'> <span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><span lang=EN-AU
style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#144FAE'>The ultimate goal for us would be to use
one model for daylight and energy models, but I haven’t found that quite
that simple as most software requires varying drawing techniques.</span></span><span
lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Amen brother! Another issue is that while the energy
model has to include the total building -- all spaces and systems -- to be a
complete picture of the energy use, a Radiance-based daylight model does not
necessarily require all the spaces to be modeled simultaneously. Indeed,
the accuracy of the ambient calculation is directly affected by the maximum
size of the scene, and so conducting a simultaneous daylight simulation of an
entire building at an acceptably rigorous ambient resolution can be -- is
generally -- time-prohibitive.<span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>As mentioned in a recent thread on this list, Thomas
Bleicher's "su2rad" plugin for SketchUp can export a SU model to
Radiance format and there is also an E+ plugin to allow one to use the same SU
model for E+ analysis; in theory, these three components (SketchUp, su2rad and
the E+ plugin) allow for a "single model" approach to energy and
daylight modeling. However, because the su2rad exporter wants to take the
entire model and create a single Radiance scene description, that creates the
aforementioned problem of the ambient calculation getting out of hand fairly
quickly. I suppose through intelligent layering and model structuring,
one could create a model that could be exported to Radiance in "space
components", but I'm not sure if this is compatible with the E+ plugin's
layering/model organization requirements.<span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>- Rob Guglielmetti<span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span
lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>********************************************************</span><span
lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Kristin
M. Field</span><span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Engineer
II - Mechanical</span><span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Electricity,
Resources & Building Systems Integration</span><span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>National
Renewable Energy Laboratory</span><span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>1617
Cole Blvd.</span><span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Mail
Stop #1725</span><span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Golden,
CO 80401</span><span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Phone:
303.384.7376</span><span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Fax:
303.384.7540</span><span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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