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<DIV><SPAN class=601051013-06032009><FONT face=Univers color=#0000ff
size=2>Timothy,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=601051013-06032009><FONT face=Univers color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=601051013-06032009><FONT face=Univers color=#0000ff
size=2>Thanks for the great summary. Do you know if it's possible to model
Thermodeck in eQuest by tricking the system somehow? I've bumped up the
thermal mass of the floors, but it's obviously not having as big an impact as
correctly modelling the CFD component. I had a thought about modelling a
pre-coil to simulate the damping effects of the slab in reducing peaks and then
manually removing that energy, but I'm not sure if this is correct. Any
thoughts?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=601051013-06032009><FONT face=Univers color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=601051013-06032009><FONT face=Univers color=#0000ff
size=2>Cheers,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=601051013-06032009></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=601051013-06032009>
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<P class=MsoNormal align=left><FONT color=#0000ff><B><SPAN
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AP</SPAN></FONT></P>
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style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT color=#0000ff>T.
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<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Timothy
Moore<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, March 06, 2009 3:59 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org;
virtual-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Bldg-sim] IES VE:
Radiant, hollow core ceiling<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV id=idOWAReplyText35684 dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Rebecca
and others, </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV id=idOWAReplyText84509 dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left"
align=left><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left"
align=left><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Modeling
air-cooled (or heated), hollow-core radiant slabs (such as TermoDeck) within IES
Virtual Environment is a relatively straightforward matter:</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left"
align=left><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left"
align=left><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">1)
Include the hollow-core geometry in your model. This must be segmented to
properly capture the changing delta-T over distance as the supply air gains heat
while passing through any sections of the floor cavity that are going to be in
series rather than parallel configurations. </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left"
align=left><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left"
align=left><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">2)
If the hollow core is cooled via natural ventilation, then the volume of the
core spaces needs to be coupled to the plenums or zones that include the
operable openings. Like windows or other operable openings in the occupied
spaces, these openings can be controlled via schedules, interior conditions,
climate variables, or formulae including any of these. The coupled MacroFlo
dynamic bulk airflow modler within the VE will need to run whenever natural
ventialtion is to be acconted for, but not if there were no operable windows and
the hollow-coore was to be cooled by mechanically driven supply airflow.
</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left"
align=left><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left"
align=left><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">In
the case of natural ventialtion, you may also wish to use the MicroFlo CFD tool
within the VE to determine the performacne of specific openings, cavities, or
occupied spaces under specific conditons. The bulk airflow model and thermal
simulation are used to set up initial boundary conditions for the CFD model, and
then the results from the CFD run can then inform revision of the operable
openings in the dynamic bulk-airflow + thermal modeling. While the CFD work can
be valuable in determining performance and refining the model, it is not
required to run the dynamic bulk-airflow + thermal modeling of the naturally
ventilated spaces, nor is it required for modeling the hollow-core
floor.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left"
align=left><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left"
align=left><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">3)
Apply convective heat transfer coefficients to the interior surfaces of the
hollow-core material constructions appropriate to the use of this core
space as a duct (see ASHRAE Fundamentals for determining appropriate
coefficients). You will need to calculate the equivalent air-film resistance, as
this is the value you will change, replacing the air-film resistance associated
with the default variable coefficient for natural convection in the
Constructions dialog. Then open the Derived Parameters dialog from there to
confirm that the convective heat transfer coefficient calculated by the VE is
what you intended (and thus that you have entered the correct air-film
resistance value). Note also that the bottom surface construction of the
hollow-core ceiling will be applied as the Ceiling construction for the occupied
space below, and therefore the "Outside" surface air-film resistance for this
element will be the one facing the interior of the hollow core.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left"
align=left><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left"
align=left><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">4)
If air-cooling or heating of the hollow core is mechanically driven, set up the
system in ApacheHVAC with the supply air running through the hollow core
geometry as would be done in the actual building. If it is a mixed-mode system,
wherein the cavity is alternately cooled by mechanical supply air and natural
ventilation, then set up the controls such that these modes hand-off
appropriately—i.e., if no overlap is desired, ensure that controllers for both
system include common sensed variable and thresholds, and non-overlapping
responses at these thresholds.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left"
align=left><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left"
align=left><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">IES
VE is in fact exceptionally well suited to doing this and provides appropriate
means of controlling such systems and of accounting for the full range of
radiant and convective heat transfer paths involved. </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left"
align=left><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: left"
align=left><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">As
with any tool, taking the time to first understand how to use the tool properly
is important to getting appropriate results. </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"></SPAN></B></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Timothy Moore
<BR></SPAN></B><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Senior Consultant –
Special Projects<B> </B></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV id=idSignature10756 dir=ltr>
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style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><BR>Mobile:
415 810 2495 <BR>Office: 415 983-0603<BR><U><A
href="mailto:timothy.moore@iesve.com" target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy">timothy.moore@iesve.com</SPAN></A></U><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #1f497d"><A
href="https://mail.iesve.com/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.iesve.com/"
target=_blank><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">www.iesve.com
</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
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align=left><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><BR>**Design,
Simulate + Innovate with the <Virtual Environment>**</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV class=Section1>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Rebecca Butler
[mailto:Rebecca.Leigh.Butler@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 05,
2009 8:50 AM<BR><B>To:</B> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Subject:</B>
[Bldg-sim] IES VE: Radiant, hollow core ceiling</SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>I have a question regarding the capabilities of IES VE and
its CFD package and I was hoping someone might have some experience or insight
to help get me started on the following problem. We have a concept cooling
design which includes a radiant hollow core concrete ceiling through which
evaporatively cooled air is routed. The air which is routed through the
radiant ceiling comes from a central evaporative cooler and is then exhausted at
the exterior of each room after it has passed through the airflow passages in
the ceiling. Just to be clear, this is not a typical radiant system in
that electricity is being used to cool the slab but instead evaporatively cooled
outdoor air is being used in its place. We also want to couple these
effects with natural ventilation which occurs because of the use of operable
windows. <BR><BR>We are trying to analyze the effects of these techniques
in a cooling season in Colorado (hence the benefit of the evaporative
cooler). We have conducted rough calculations of the benefits of using
such a system using standard ASHRAE energy transfer techniques and we want to
verify our results. Have you ever heard of this type of system being
modeled in IES VE and/or is it capable of modeling such a system? Is there
a way to modify the "radiant ceiling" option in IES to take into account the
saving which would occur by using evaporatively cooled air in the place of
electricity? If not, is there a way to manually create such a system from
the ground up?<BR><BR>Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank
you.<BR><SPAN style="COLOR: #888888"><BR>Rebecca Butler<BR>LEED AP<BR>Enermodal
Engineering<BR>(303) 861-2070</SPAN> </P></DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>