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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hi all;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Can any one advice on the best HVAC system
configuration for a house with a high ceiling in the great room (other than
installing a fan in the ceiling). I have faced this problem many times. The way
I was doing it is by over sizing the AC unit for the second floor, and over
sizing the furnace for the first floor. But still, the thermostat in the second
floor will not help in making the lobby of the first floor much cooler that
what it should be. The same thing applies for the heating. Another way I was
doing it is by having one system for the entire house and run the fan continuously,
but this system is also in efficient, because I can not zone the house. Is
there a better way to do it and is there any research in this area?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>H. Abaza<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Xiaobing Liu<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, February 03, 2009
11:41 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> 'Bereket Nigusse';
bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org; Jeff Haberl<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Residential
System Sizing</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Bereket:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>There are many other reasons could explain
the differences:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>1. "System-Sizing-Ratio". For
many system, eQUEST uses 1.15 "System-Sizing-Ratio". </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>2. Fan power. Different from space load
calc, the system cooling capacity has to account for fan power heat as part of
the cooling loads.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>3. How about latent cooling? Have you
accounted for latent cooling in your comparison?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>4. Make sure the zones in LS-B and SV-A report
are exactly the same. Has the loads from roof/ceiling be accounted for in the
LS-B report?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I am surprised to see in your results that
Minneapolis, MN has slightly higher cooling loads (20.3 kBtu/hr in LS-B) than
Houston, TX (20.2 kBtu/hr in LS-B).</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Jeff:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>In your e-mail, you mentioned that "DOE-2 is known for doing a
very bad job of sizing for residential". Is there any report/paper
detailing this?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Xiaobing</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]<b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Bereket Nigusse<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, February 03, 2009
5:32 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Joe Huang; Ellen Franconi;
bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org; Jeff Haberl<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Bldg-sim]
Residential System Sizing</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
Hi All,<br>
<br>
I am modeling a residential building with RESYS as a system, and using auto
sizing for system sizing.<br>
<br>
The space temperature (space design temperature) for load calculation is set at
75 oF while the Design-Cool-T is set at 78 oF. I believe that this has
the effect of decreasing the system cooling capacity. There is no set-back or
set-up applied. No ventilation outdoor air is
specified. Infiltration, which is already captured in the building load
calculation, is part of the building load. <br>
<br>
How does the system cooling capacity increases by more than 50% (in the case of
<st1:City w:st="on">Minneapolis</st1:City> and <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City
w:st="on">Duluth</st1:City>, <st1:State w:st="on">Minnesota</st1:State></st1:place>)
compared to the building peak load in the absence of any out door air load for
ventilation? <br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Bereket<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
<hr size=1 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Joe Huang
<joe@drawbdl.com><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Ellen Franconi
<EFranconi@archenergy.com>; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org; Jeff Haberl
<jeffhaberl@tees.tamus.edu>; Bereket Nigusse <nigusse_ba@yahoo.com><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, February 3, 2009
2:16:32 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Bldg-sim]
Residential System Sizing</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Ellen, </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Not exactly. What you wrote is definitely true during
the SYSTEMS simulation and peak loads reported in SS-F (?), but Bereket was
referring to the SV-A, which is the systems sizing report. Assuming that he's
doing "auto-sizing", the DOE-2 sizing routine will take the
peak loads from LOADS and compute the design cooling capacity at the
COOLING-DESIGN-TEMPERATURE. (I may have the keyword wrong, since I don't have a
DOE-2 manual handy). Thus, the termperature discrepancy between the
single LOADS temperature and the COOLING-DESIGN-TEMPERATURE does exist, as
you've mentioned, but transient loads due to tempeature set-up or set-back
or interzone heat flows are not reflected. That's why an autosized
SYSTEM will often still result in a few undercooled or underheated hours.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>My suggestion to Bereket in making sense of the numbers is
to compare the TEMPERATURE under SPACE-CONDITIONS for the LOADS reference
temperature, to the COOLING-DESIGN-TEMPERATURE (I may have this keyword
wrong) is ZONE-CONDITIONS in SYSTEMS. What kind of HVAC are you modeling?
It sounds like a residential system (RESYS), but that system doesn't have any
OUTSIDE-AIR, does it ? </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Joe Huang</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>White Box Technologies, Inc.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal;moz-background-clip: -moz-initial;
moz-background-origin: -moz-initial;moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:EFranconi@archenergy.com" target="_blank"
title="EFranconi@archenergy.com" ymailto="mailto:EFranconi@archenergy.com">Ellen
Franconi</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank"
title="bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org"
ymailto="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
; <a href="mailto:jeffhaberl@tees.tamus.edu" target="_blank"
title="jeffhaberl@tees.tamus.edu" ymailto="mailto:jeffhaberl@tees.tamus.edu">Jeff
Haberl</a> ; <a href="mailto:nigusse_ba@yahoo.com" target="_blank"
title="nigusse_ba@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:nigusse_ba@yahoo.com">Bereket
Nigusse</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Monday, February
02, 2009 7:50 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re: [Bldg-sim]
Residential System Sizing<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Another reason that the results are different is that the space
temperature may be different in the "loads" part of the DOE-2 program
than in the "systems" part of the program. In
"loads", the space temperatures are set equal to the space
design temperate. In "systems", the space temperature is based
on the zone setpoint schedule and whatever temperature is actually achieved in
the space. Thus, if you have a set up or a setback from the design space
temperature, it will be different. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Ellen<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Ellen Franconi, Ph.D., LEED AP<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Energy Analysis Group Manager<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Architectural Energy Corporation<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:Street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on"><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>2540 Frontier Avenue</span></font></st1:address></st1:Street><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Boulder</span></font></st1:City>,
<st1:State w:st="on">CO</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode w:st="on">80301</st1:PostalCode></st1:place><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>tel. 303-444-4149<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>fax 303-444-4303<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><a href="mailto:efranconi@archenergy.com" target="_blank"
ymailto="mailto:efranconi@archenergy.com">efranconi@archenergy.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><a href="http://www.archenergy.com/" target="_blank">http://www.archenergy.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
>>> Jeff Haberl <jeffhaberl@tees.tamus.edu> 2/2/2009 8:40 PM
>>><br>
Bereket:<br>
<br>
I would not expect the values in SV-A and LS-B to agree for most buildings.
There are many reasons for this.<br>
<br>
First, peak loads from LOADS do not include ventilation loads as would be the
case in SYSTEMS, only infiltration. <br>
Second, you may be looking at different days on the weather file between LOADS
and SYSTEMS, so this would <br>
need to be checked. <br>
<br>
In addition, DOE-2 sizes for the absolute peak, whereas other methods, such as
Manual J, have some undersizing<br>
built into the procedures, hence you'll almost always get a much larger system
size in DOE-2. <br>
<br>
Both the SV-A and LS-B lists you show seem reasonable, with the exception of
the MN #s, which I suspect that you<br>
may have a fair bit of 24 hour infiltration in your input file...(i.e., low
night time temps in MN?) <br>
However, without looking at the file I can only guess. <br>
<br>
There are 100s of reasons for the funny little differences you show.
You're probabloy better off running a Manual J <br>
calculation on the house if it is residential. DOE-2 is known for doing a very
bad job of sizing for residential.<br>
<br>
Jeff<br>
<br>
8=! 8=) :=) 8=) ;=) 8=) 8=( 8=) :=') 8=) 8=) 8=?<br>
Jeff S. Haberl, Ph.D., P.E.............................jhaberl@esl.tamu.edu<br>
Professor......................................................Office Ph:
979-845-6507<br>
Department of Architecture.......................Lab Ph: 979-845-6065 <br>
Energy Systems Laboratory.......................FAX: 979-862-2457 <br>
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Texas</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceName
w:st="on">A&M</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">University</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>..............................77843-3581<br>
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">College Station</st1:City>, <st1:State
w:st="on">Texas</st1:State>, <st1:country-region w:st="on">USA</st1:country-region></st1:place>.......................URL:
<a href="http://www-esl.tamu.edu" target="_blank">www-esl.tamu.edu</a><br>
8=/ 8=) :=) 8=) ;=) 8=) 8=() 8=) 8=? 8=) 8=) 8=) <br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
<br>
From: bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org on behalf of Bereket Nigusse<br>
Sent: Mon 2/2/2009 5:59 PM<br>
To: bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Residential System Sizing<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hello All,<br>
<br>
I have a problem with DOE2.1E cooling system sizing. The cooling capacity
reported by DOE2.1e in SV-A and LS-B reports are quite different and shows
different sensitivity trends depending locations. <br>
<br>
Question 1<br>
For the case with out door air flow ratio input set to zero DOE2.1E calculated
cooling capacity and the peak coolig load are shown below. I assume
that the out door air contribution to the system load is zero for zero out door
air fraction and with this assumption the system cooling capacity will be
different from the peak cooling load only due to difference in ARI and the peak
cooling load hour weather conditions. What else could cause the cooling
capacity to be different from the peak load for zero out door air flow rate case?
I have looked into to DOE2.1E manual but wasn't able connect the steps from the
peak cooling load to the system capacity? <br>
<br>
Question 2<br>
Does the change from the peak cooling load to the system cooling capacity
seem a reasonable for the different loacations given below? <br>
The building is 2100 sqft conditioned floor area, two story, single family
house. Each floor is modeled as a single zone.<br>
<br>
<br>
Report AV-A Report LS-B <br>
Locations Supply Flow, CFM Cooling Capacity, <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName
w:st="on">kBtu/hr</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">Peak</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>
Cooling Load, kBtu/hr Outdoor DB Temp at Peak Load, oF Outdoor WB Temp at Peak
Load, oF<br>
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Baltimore</st1:City>, <st1:State
w:st="on">MD</st1:State></st1:place> 850.0 25.7 22.1 93 73<br>
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Houston</st1:City>, <st1:State w:st="on">TX</st1:State></st1:place>
813.0 27.0 20.2 93 78<br>
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Chicago</st1:City>, <st1:State w:st="on">IL</st1:State></st1:place>
1054.0 29.3 20.3 89 72<br>
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Minneapolis</st1:City>, <st1:State
w:st="on">MN</st1:State></st1:place> 1226.0 33.5 20.3 89 79<br>
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Duluth</st1:City>, <st1:State w:st="on">MN</st1:State></st1:place>
1258.0 34.8 18.1 87 72<br>
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Phoenix</st1:City>, <st1:State w:st="on">AZ</st1:State></st1:place>
1281.0 37.4 31.6 114 71<br>
<br>
<br>
Thank you in advance for the help,<br>
<br>
<br>
Bereket<br>
<br>
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