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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=937492221-14012009>Dear Bldg-Sim folk,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=937492221-14012009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=937492221-14012009>The insulation issue is one where more is NOT
necessarily better, as is indicated in Mr. Spielvogel's attachment. For a
"standard" building type such as an office, it won't be too hard to assign
an average density of lighting and plug loads, use the favored HVAC system, and
then tinker with the "R" value to see where "optimum" is found. Climate
<U>does</U> make a difference, as is also indicated in the
article.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=937492221-14012009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=937492221-14012009>LEED, for the record, seems to give this interaction
between envelope and internal loads its due because the required energy analysis
will account for these factors. To be rigorous, though, you need to
use a realistic level of lighting and plug loads, NOT the connected
load!</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=937492221-14012009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=937492221-14012009>Another factor which I think ASHRAE 90.1 includes is
the bridging effect of many wall constructions. Wood studs in residential
construction, for example, consume 15%-20% or more of the wall area and have
very little insulation value, degrading the overall average insulation
value. Steel studs do the same thing in commercial
construction.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><B
style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><FONT size=4>The Building Performance
Team<BR></FONT></B><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">James V. Dirkes II,
P.E., LEED AP<BR></B>1631 Acacia Drive NW<BR>Grand Rapids, MI 49504<BR>616
450 8653<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> bldg-rate-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-rate-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Larry
Spielvogel<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 14, 2009 1:56 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
Matutinovic, Luka; James Geers; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Cc:</B>
bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Bldg-rate] [Bldg-sim]
CO2 sensors and outside airreduction.LEED forschools &ASHRAE
90.1-2004<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Gentlemen:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I disagree about R-values for non-residential buildings. See
the attached pages from the ASHRAE Handbook of Fundamentals.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Eur Ing Int PE Larry Spielvogel, PE, CEng, FASHRAE, FCIBSE,
FSLL<BR>L. G. Spielvogel, Inc.<BR>21506 Valley Forge Circle<BR>King of Prussia,
PA 19406-1137<BR>Phone: 610-783-6350; Cell: 215-620-1234<BR>Fax: 610-783-6349;
Email: <A href="mailto:spielvogel@comcast.net">spielvogel@comcast.net</A></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=LMatutinovic@halsall.com
href="mailto:LMatutinovic@halsall.com">Matutinovic, Luka</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=jgeers@sfa-architects.com
href="mailto:jgeers@sfa-architects.com">James Geers</A> ; <A
title=bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org
href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org
href="mailto:bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 14, 2009 1:16
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Bldg-rate] [Bldg-sim] CO2
sensors and outside air reduction.LEED forschools &ASHRAE 90.1-2004</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV id=idOWAReplyText52621 dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>James,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>I disagree with the claim that R-value
has little effect. Look at the number of all-glass buildings in northern
climate, and I'll bet they barely meet LEED or ASHRAE energy pre-reqs.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>However, there is definitely a law of
diminishing return at work. That is, after a certain R-value, additional
insulation has very little effect. The curve of R-value vs. energy savings
flatlines. In our case in Toronto, this happens beyond R-20 walls and
R-30 roofs typically.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>The other thing to keep in mind is the
type of building. Offices are very much dependant on skin losses, but
hospitals for example are dominated by ventilation loads and envelope losses
are almost insignificant by comparison.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>As for your question on CO2 control, our
experince has shown that you need a very fine resulution to get any
benefit. That is for a mixed-air system, you typically need one sensor
per box/damper, so that you're not over-ventilating the rest as you pointed
out. But mixed-air system are bad anyway so CO2 control is a marginal
improvement. You get the most bang if you de-couple the ventilation from
the heating/cooling by using compartmental system such as fan-coils or
distributed heat-pumps. Why these systems aren't more popular in our
market is beyond me...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>Luka Matutinovic, B.A.Sc., LEED
AP</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>Halsall Associates
Ltd.</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><BR>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
on behalf of James Geers<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wed 14/01/2009 1:09 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Cc:</B>
bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Bldg-sim] CO2 sensors and
outside air reduction. LEED forschools &ASHRAE
90.1-2004<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Previous posts have confirmed my
suspicions that increasing the R-value of walls and roofs has little to no
effect on energy performance, due to the outside air requirements.
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">This raises a few
questions:</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-INDENT: 0.25in"><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">1. What is the most
effective way to use CO2 sensors to dramatically reduce the outside air
requirements?</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<OL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" type=1 start=2>
<LI class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Is it permissible to vary the
CFM between the base case and design case in the ASHRAE 90.1-2004 Appendix G
model, and consequently in the LEED template?</SPAN></FONT> <FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></LI></OL>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<OL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" type=1 start=3>
<LI class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">What is the most effective way
to use CO2 monitoring in a building with 40 classrooms and other large
spaces. If one sensor is triggered, won’t the entire zone get fresh
air and defeat the energy savings?</SPAN></FONT> <FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></LI></OL>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<OL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" type=1 start=4>
<LI class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">If every classroom has a sensor,
does any one have experience with the replaceable / Mail in sensors to
assure their accuracy.</SPAN></FONT> <FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></LI></OL>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<OL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" type=1 start=5>
<LI class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">If I model this in Equest, do I
need a zone for every classroom.</SPAN></FONT> <FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></LI></OL>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thank you for any feed
back.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Tahoma color=navy size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">James F.
Geers</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Registered
Architect</SPAN></FONT></B><B><FONT face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">LEED
Accredited Professional</SPAN></FONT></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT></B> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">SFA
Architects</SPAN></FONT></B><B><FONT face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">300
West Fourth Street</SPAN></FONT></B><B><FONT face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Cincinnati</SPAN></FONT></B><B><FONT
face=Tahoma color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">,
Ohio 45202</SPAN></FONT></B><B><FONT face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">513.721.0600</SPAN></FONT></B><B><FONT
face=Tahoma color=navy><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
</SPAN></FONT></B><B><FONT face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">513.721.0611
(fax)</SPAN></FONT></B><B><FONT face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Tahoma color=navy size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">James F.
Geers</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Registered
Architect</SPAN></FONT></B><B><FONT face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">LEED
Accredited Professional</SPAN></FONT></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT></B> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">SFA
Architects</SPAN></FONT></B><B><FONT face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">300
West Fourth Street</SPAN></FONT></B><B><FONT face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Cincinnati</SPAN></FONT></B><B><FONT
face=Tahoma color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">,
Ohio 45202</SPAN></FONT></B><B><FONT face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">513.721.0600</SPAN></FONT></B><B><FONT
face=Tahoma color=navy><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
</SPAN></FONT></B><B><FONT face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">513.721.0611
(fax)</SPAN></FONT></B><B><FONT face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
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