<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.6000.16788" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=296134616-12012009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Now your question becomes more clear! If your
principal concern is "indirectly conditioned space", I'll say
that:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<UL dir=ltr>
<LI>
<DIV align=left><SPAN class=296134616-12012009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>I'm making some assumptions without seeing your floor plan, mostly
because I'm not sure why there would be a significant number of spaces which
have no ventilation, heating or cooling.</FONT></SPAN></DIV></LI>
<LI>
<DIV align=left><SPAN class=296134616-12012009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Any "non-conditioned" space within an otherwise conditioned area will
become cool or warm because of heat transfer from the adjoining spaces.
Effectively this means that the main heating / cooling plant serves this
"non-conditioned" area regardless of whether there is ductwork, fan coils,
etc. Therefore, if you want to properly predict the heating / cooling
energy, you must include the heat transfer to and from these "non-conditioned"
areas. I think that's all ASHRAE is trying to account for in their
definition.</FONT></SPAN></DIV></LI>
<LI>
<DIV align=left><SPAN class=296134616-12012009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>The energy model, as a result, should include these "non-conditioned"
areas with appropriate definitions for the wall construction and internal
mass. The airflow and heating / cooling capacity can be zero or perhaps
the setpoints can be chosen such that no heating or cooling will ever be
required...</FONT></SPAN></DIV></LI></UL>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=296134616-12012009>p.s.,
I don't know about "common practice" since I'm one consultant among many and
have never discussed it with others. If the "non-conditioned" spaces are a
very small portion of the overall area, perhaps they can be ignored in the
energy model. If not, they should be included. Regardless, the USGBC
reviewer will have the final say on the matter. I hope this
helps!</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><B
style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><FONT size=4>The Building Performance
Team<BR></FONT></B><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">James V. Dirkes II,
P.E., LEED AP<BR></B>1631 Acacia Drive NW<BR>Grand Rapids, MI 49504<BR>616
450 8653<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> silpa.ulrik@gmail.com
[mailto:silpa.ulrik@gmail.com] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Ulrik Welle-Strand
Horn<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 12, 2009 11:38 AM<BR><B>To:</B> James V.
Dirkes II P.E.<BR><B>Cc:</B> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 90.1 Definition of "Conditioned" - The PRM Reportfor LEED
EAc1 and Appendix G Energy Model<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Dear Mr. James V. Dirkes II:<BR><BR>Could you please clarify what you
mean by "The definition depends only indirectly on "U" values and wall areas?" I
am not designing the mechanical system, I am only reviewing it. Therefore I
can't chose which spaces to condition. The building has many rooms that don't
have any cooling coils, nor do they have any cold air entering the rooms. These
must surely be indirectly conditioned spaces?<BR><BR>For these indirectly
conditioned spaces, I am wondering if I need to perform the U-factor and surface
area calculations and comparisons? The spaces in question surely are not
ventilated with 3 ACH from conditioned spaces. As there are quite a few of these
spaces, I just wanted to know if it is really common practice to perform these
calculations?<BR><BR>Thank you for a quick reply.<BR><BR>Sincerely
yours,<BR><BR><BR><B>Ulrik Welle-Strand Horn </B><BR>Sustainability Engineer<BR>
<DIV><BR><B>Silpa Inc.</B><BR><FONT size=1><B>s</B> i m p l e .
<B>s</B> c i e n t i f i c . <B>s</B> u s t a i n a b l
e<BR></FONT></DIV><FONT size=1>
<DIV>AMERICAS | MIDDLE EAST | ASIA<BR><A href="http://www.silpainc.com/"
target=_blank>www.silpainc.com</A><BR></DIV><FONT size=2><BR></FONT></FONT><FONT
size=2>India: +91.90080.96083</FONT><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 9:06 PM, James V. Dirkes II P.E.
<SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:jvd2pe@tds.net">jvd2pe@tds.net</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Dear
Ulrik,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Regarding
"conditioned space":</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>"Conditioned space" seems pretty straightforward to me. If, for
example, the cooling system for a 10,000 sq.ft. space has 10 tons cooling
capacity, then the capacity is 12Btu/hr/ft2 (10tons x 12,000 Btu/hr/ton /
10,000 ft2) This exceeds the ASHRAE threshold of 5 Btu/h/ft2, so it's
"conditioned". If the cooling system was only 4 tons, it would not be
"conditioned" (only 4.8 Btu/hr/ft2).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>The
definition depends only indirectly on "U" values and wall areas. For any
given construction, you choose to provide an air conditioning system or
not. You can also choose to cool a lot or a little. Each choice
affects whether you end up with an air conditioning system greater than 5
Btu/hr/ft2 or not.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Heating
works the same way, except the threshold varies by climate
zone.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><B><FONT size=4>The Building
Performance Team<BR></FONT></B><B>James V. Dirkes II, P.E., LEED
AP<BR></B>1631 Acacia Drive NW<BR>Grand Rapids, MI 49504<BR>616 450
8653</P>
<P> </P></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><BR>
<DIV lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> <A
href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target=_blank>bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</A> [mailto:<A
href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target=_blank>bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</A>] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Ulrik Welle-Strand Horn<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, January 10, 2009 9:47
AM<BR><B>To:</B> <A href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org"
target=_blank>bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B> [Bldg-sim]
ASHRAE 90.1 Definition of "Conditioned" - The PRM Reportfor LEED EAc1 and
Appendix G Energy Model<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=Wj3C7c>
<DIV></DIV>Dear All,<BR><BR>I would like to know if and how you consider
ASHRAE's definition of conditioned space on page 13 of the 2004
version.<BR><BR>Specifically, I am interested to know if you abide by this
definition when listing the conditioned vs unconditioned area? The definition
seems really specific to me, explaining how the system serving a conditioned
area must have a certain capacity per square foot of building area served. It
even goes on to explain how for some spaces one must consider the sum of the
products of various U-factors and wall areas. To me, it does not seem like one
can eyeball all these comparisons and definitions and therefore one has to go
ahead and measure the capacities of systems and compare them with the area
they serve, as well as do computations for rooms that might be indirectly
conditioned.<BR><BR>The PRM report for LEED requires you to list unconditioned
and conditioned areas separately. Do any of you actually go through the
calculations to find out if each single space in your project complies with
the definitions put forward in the 90.1 document? It seems to me like more
effort than what it's worth. I don't recall ever using this classification of
unconditioned vs conditioned anywhere else in the LEED certification process.
Especially, I don't recall ever having to use this definition to do the PRM
model itself under Appendix G. Has anyone come across another place than the
PRM report where the efforts of classifying their spaces accoring to the 90.1
definition above has been rewarded? Please also let me know if any one of you
have ever experienced trouble getting your project LEED certified because of
lack of compliance with this definition.<BR><BR>Lastly, the definition
explicitly states that "Crawlspaces, attics, and parking garages with natural
or mechanical ventilation are not considered enclosed spaces." Do most of you
usually leave out car parks from the PRM area report? I am working on a
building where about 60% of the floor area is parking space, meaning the sum
total in my Space Summary will be much less than stated otherwise in the
documents submitted to USGBC. I know that they are looking for all the total
areas to be pretty consistent, and that some people experience problems when
thes total areas don't match up. Has anyone ever dealt with this issue? If so,
how did you deal with it?<BR><BR>I appreciate any response you may have to any
or all of my questions.<BR><BR>Sincerely yours,<BR><BR><BR><B>Ulrik
Welle-Strand Horn </B><BR>Sustainability Engineer<BR>
<DIV><BR><B>Silpa Inc.</B><BR><FONT size=1><B>s</B> i m p l e .
<B>s</B> c i e n t i f i c . <B>s</B> u s t a i n a b l
e<BR></FONT></DIV><FONT size=1>
<DIV>AMERICAS | MIDDLE EAST | ASIA<BR><A href="http://www.silpainc.com/"
target=_blank>www.silpainc.com</A><BR></DIV><FONT
size=2><BR></FONT></FONT><FONT size=2>India:
+91.90080.96083</FONT><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></BODY></HTML>