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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Bill, Paul, Mike, et al – <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>We also have not mentioned another item relative to Appendix G,
which requires sizing the flow rate based on a 20-degree delta T. If the system
is a 100% OSA unit, and the baseline is sized for a 20-degree space-to-coil
temperature differential, what happens if the makeup air unit is not
designed with a 20-degree delta-T? Then it is possible the peak CFM rates could
potentially vary. So right there, we could potentially have a contradiction
between 2 lines in Appendix G – (1) OSA ventilation rates are to be
identical, and (2) The baseline AHU flow rate is specified by a 20-degree delta
T – now, which statement in Appendix G “over rules” the other?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>This seems like this should fall under the Exceptional
Calculation methodology to explicitly document where the savings come from, and
whether the savings are justified…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Also regarding an earlier item from this thread, that one cannot
take credit for UFAD and displacement ventilation systems with reduced CFM
rates – as long as the OSA CFM rates are identical, then credit can be taken
from the UFAD/DV system design. You’ll be providing the same OSA, but
different Total CFM rates could be calculated based on the different mixed air
temperatures and designed coil leaving temperatures. This can be either a
positive or negative, which truly depends on the climate and the ability to
maximize the economizer hours…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><br>
<br>
</span><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Mitch Dec</span></b><span style='color:#1F497D'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Senior Energy Analyst, EIT</span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>LEED<sup>®</sup> Accredited Professional</span><span
style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><a href="http://www.glumac.com/"><span style='text-decoration:
none'><img border=0 width=339 height=37 id="_x0000_i1029"
src="cid:image001.gif@01C940DF.BFD43550"
alt="http://www.glumac.com/glumacsig.gif"></span></a><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>
<hr size=2 width=330 style='width:247.5pt' noshade style='color:#9ACB33'
align=left>
</span></div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>320 SW Washington, Suite 200</span><span style='color:#1F497D'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Portland, OR 97204-2640</span><span style='color:#1F497D'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>T. 503.227.5280 F. 503.274.7674<br>
<br>
</span><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#333333'>Thinking. Inside the building.</span></b><span style='font-size:
9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#333333'><a href="http://www.glumac.com/">www.glumac.com</a></span><span
style='color:#1F497D'> <br>
</span><a href="http://www.glumac.com/"><span style='text-decoration:none'><img
border=0 width=309 height=23 id="_x0000_i1028"
src="cid:image002.gif@01C940DF.BFD43550"
alt="http://www.glumac.com/consider.gif"></span></a><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Riemer<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 07, 2008 1:37 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Brandon Nichols'; Michael Tillou<br>
<b>Cc:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Exhaust, outside air and infiltration for LEED<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Bill,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>This is a fascinating convergence of issues. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Appendix G's requirement for the same
minimum ventilation rate in the baseline as the proposed is true
but also a bit incomplete when considering a design of a 100% OA VAV
systems serving fume hoods.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>We have a similar scenario of a small building with likely VAV
hoods, possibly lower flow, likely served by a 100% outside air system BUT
with my favorite added complexity of district heating and
cooling. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Alas, while I was scratching my head, the client abandoned
their LEED goal. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>So I have not fully solved it for myself and cannot solve for it
your project but I do suggest the following actions:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>1) Read the 90.1-2004 prescriptive requirements for certain
systems serving fume hoods to be VAV or have heat recovery. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>2) Read the 90.1-2004 Appendix G base system selection
section</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>3) Now read those same sections in 90.1-2007 and ponder which
changes represent revisions and which ones represent clarifications of original
intent</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>4) And maybe read the User's Manuals too</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>5) Consider the exceptional calculation method as the
venue to claim energy savings, that you consider real but are not explicitly
allowed or defined by the document, for consideration by the LEED
reviewer</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>6) Research the existing CIR's</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>7) Before spending numerous hours on an approach that may or
may not be accepted, buy a CIR and propose your tact to the USGBC
itself. If they reject yours they almost certainly
will dictate a new tact that their reviewer would be
obligated to accept for your project.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>And lastly, do not wade too much further through this on a Friday
afternoon unless you have to do so. For me, tasks like this should be tackled
early in the day and early in the week.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Good luck,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Paul</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Brandon
Nichols<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 07, 2008 2:47 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Michael Tillou<br>
<b>Cc:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Exhaust, outside air and infiltration for LEED</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>My two cents...<br>
<br>
The same OSA for baseline vs as-designed makes sense for occupant-required OSA,
such that there is no reward for compromising occupant health to gain LEED
points.<br>
<br>
However, that fraction of the fumehood OSA over and above occupancy-required is
<b><i>process</i></b> OSA, an opportunity where LEED <b><i>should </i></b>be
encouraging savings. Now I'm not saying they do, just that they <b><i>should...</i></b><br>
<br>
And after rereading the requirements it shakes out that LEED really doesn't
give credit for reducing process outside air loads, keep the parametric run in
your model -- the local utility may see things differently, and 'recognize you'
with a big fat rebate check.<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
<br>
Brandon Nichols<br>
BW Nichols PE<br>
Seattle WA<br>
206-228-8707<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 11:53 AM, Michael Tillou <<a
href="mailto:michael.tillou@gmail.com">michael.tillou@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>You are correct that Appendix G requires outside air to be the same
for both as-designed and baseline models. You would not be able to claim
savings for reduced ventilation airflow from a more efficient fume
hood. Similarly you cannot claim credit for reduced
ventilation airflow on displacement ventilation and UFAD systems. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>However I see no reason why you wouldn't be able to claim
the fan energy savings associated with a more efficient fume hood.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Mike</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif"'>Michael
Tillou, PE, LEED</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif"'>Tillou
Engineering, LLC</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif"'>Williamstown,
MA 01267</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif"'>P:
413-458-9870</span> <span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif"'>C:
413-652-1087</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a
href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Bishop, Bill<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 07, 2008 9:04 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Bldg-sim] Exhaust, outside air and infiltration for LEED</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>The
mechanical engineer for a campus laboratory building with 100% OA wants to
claim energy savings for reduced exhaust from more efficient fume hoods.
(Established design practice uses hoods with 100 fpm flow – they are
installing 70 fpm hoods. This reduces peak exhaust from 700 to 490 CFM per
hood.) My approach has always been to keep outside air, exhaust and
infiltration flows identical between the proposed and baseline models (except
for DCV). (This was not easy for this model with proposed VAV and baseline
constant volume packaged rooftops.)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Has anybody
successfully claimed OA/exhaust/infiltration savings for a LEED project?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Thanks,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Bill</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium","sans-serif";
color:black'>William Bishop</span></b><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond";color:black'>, EIT, LEED<sup>®</sup>
AP</span></b><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond";
color:#003300'> </span></b><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond";
color:green'>|</span></b><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond";
color:#003300'> </span></b><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond";
color:black'>Pathfinder Engineers LLP</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Mechanical
Engineer</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>3300
Monroe Ave., Suite 306 <br>
Rochester, NY 14618</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>TEL (585)
218-0730 Ext. 114<br>
FAX (585) 218-0737 </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><a
href="mailto:bbishop@pathfinderengineers.com" target="_blank">bbishop@pathfinderengineers.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><a
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