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<DIV dir=ltr align=left>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546303120-07112008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Bill,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546303120-07112008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>This is a fascinating convergence of issues.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546303120-07112008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546303120-07112008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=889141221-07112008>Appendix G's requirement for
the same minimum ventilation rate in the baseline as the proposed
is true but also a bit incomplete when considering a design of a 100% OA
VAV systems serving fume hoods.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546303120-07112008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546303120-07112008><FONT><FONT
face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2>We have a similar scenario of a
small building with likely VAV hoods, possibly lower flow, likely served by a
100% <SPAN class=889141221-07112008>outside </SPAN>air system <SPAN
class=889141221-07112008>BUT</SPAN> with <SPAN class=889141221-07112008>my
favorite </SPAN>added complexity of district heating and cooling.<SPAN
class=889141221-07112008> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546303120-07112008><FONT><FONT
face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=889141221-07112008></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546303120-07112008><FONT><SPAN
class=889141221-07112008></SPAN><SPAN class=546303120-07112008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Alas<SPAN class=889141221-07112008>,</SPAN> <SPAN
class=889141221-07112008>while I was scratching my head, </SPAN>the client
abandoned their LEED goal. </FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546303120-07112008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2> </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546303120-07112008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>So I have not fully solved it for myself and cannot solve
for it your project but </FONT></SPAN><SPAN
class=546303120-07112008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I do suggest
the following actions:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546303120-07112008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>1) Read the 90.1-2004 prescriptive requirements for
certain systems serving <SPAN class=889141221-07112008>fume </SPAN>hoods to
be VAV or have heat recovery. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546303120-07112008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>2) Read the 90.1-2004 Appendix G base system
selection section</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546303120-07112008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>3) Now read those same sections
in 90.1-2007 and p</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
class=546303120-07112008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>onder which
changes represent revisions and which ones represent clarifications of original
intent</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546303120-07112008><SPAN
class=889141221-07112008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>4) And maybe
read the User's Manuals too</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546303120-07112008><FONT face=Arial><FONT
color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN class=889141221-07112008>5</SPAN>) Consider the
exceptional calculation method as the venue to claim energy
savings, that <SPAN class=889141221-07112008>you
consider</SPAN> real but are not explicitly allowed<SPAN
class=889141221-07112008> or defined</SPAN> by the document,
for consideration by the LEED reviewer</FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546303120-07112008><FONT face=Arial><FONT
color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=889141221-07112008>6</SPAN>) Research the existing
CIR's</FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546303120-07112008><FONT face=Arial><FONT
color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN class=889141221-07112008>7</SPAN>) Before
spending numerous hours on an approach that may or may not be
accepted, buy a CIR and propose your tact <SPAN
class=889141221-07112008>to </SPAN>the USGBC itself. If they reject yours
they almost <SPAN class=889141221-07112008>certainly will </SPAN><SPAN
class=889141221-07112008>dictate </SPAN>a new tact that <SPAN
class=889141221-07112008>their </SPAN>reviewer would be obligated to
accept<SPAN class=889141221-07112008> for your
project.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546303120-07112008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546303120-07112008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>And lastly, do not wade too much further through this on a
Friday afternoon unless you have to do so. For me, tasks like this should be
tackled early in the day and early in the week.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546303120-07112008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546303120-07112008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Good luck,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546303120-07112008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546303120-07112008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Paul</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546303120-07112008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=546303120-07112008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV></DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Brandon
Nichols<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 07, 2008 2:47 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
Michael Tillou<BR><B>Cc:</B> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [Bldg-sim] Exhaust, outside air and infiltration for
LEED<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>My two cents...<BR><BR>The same OSA for baseline vs as-designed
makes sense for occupant-required OSA, such that there is no reward for
compromising occupant health to gain LEED points.<BR><BR>However, that
fraction of the fumehood OSA over and above occupancy-required is
<B><I>process</I></B> OSA, an opportunity where LEED <I><B>should </B></I>be
encouraging savings. Now I'm not saying they do, just that they
<I><B>should...</B></I><BR><BR>And after rereading the requirements it shakes
out that LEED really doesn't give credit for reducing process outside air
loads, keep the parametric run in your model -- the local utility may see
things differently, and 'recognize you' with a big fat rebate
check.<BR><BR>Cheers<BR><BR>Brandon Nichols<BR>BW Nichols PE<BR>Seattle
WA<BR>206-228-8707<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 11:53 AM, Michael Tillou <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:michael.tillou@gmail.com">michael.tillou@gmail.com</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV lang=EN-US link="blue" vlink="purple">
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>You are
correct that Appendix G requires outside air to be the same for both
as-designed and baseline models. You would not be able to claim
savings for reduced ventilation airflow from a more efficient fume
hood. Similarly you cannot claim credit for reduced
ventilation airflow on displacement ventilation and UFAD
systems. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>However
I see no reason why you wouldn't be able to claim the fan energy
savings associated with a more efficient fume hood.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Mike</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN>
<DIV align=left><FONT face="Arial Black" size=2>Michael Tillou, PE,
LEED</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face="Arial Black" size=2>Tillou Engineering,
LLC</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face="Arial Black" size=1>Williamstown, MA
01267</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face="Arial Black" size=1>P:
413-458-9870</FONT> <FONT face="Arial Black" size=1>C:
413-652-1087</FONT></DIV></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> <A
href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target=_blank>bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</A> [mailto:<A
href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target=_blank>bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</A>] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Bishop, Bill<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 07, 2008 9:04
AM<BR><B>To:</B> <A href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org"
target=_blank>bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
[Bldg-sim] Exhaust, outside air and infiltration for
LEED<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=Wj3C7c>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The mechanical engineer for a
campus laboratory building with 100% OA wants to claim energy savings for
reduced exhaust from more efficient fume hoods. (Established design practice
uses hoods with 100 fpm flow – they are installing 70 fpm hoods. This
reduces peak exhaust from 700 to 490 CFM per hood.) My approach has always
been to keep outside air, exhaust and infiltration flows identical between
the proposed and baseline models (except for DCV). (This was not easy for
this model with proposed VAV and baseline constant volume packaged
rooftops.)</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Has anybody successfully claimed
OA/exhaust/infiltration savings for a LEED project?</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks,</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Bill</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P><B><FONT face="Franklin Gothic Medium" color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black">William
Bishop</SPAN></FONT></B><B><FONT face="Franklin Gothic Medium Cond"
color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black">, EIT,
LEED<SUP>®</SUP> AP</SPAN></FONT></B><B><FONT
face="Franklin Gothic Medium Cond" color=#003300 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: rgb(0,51,0)">
</SPAN></FONT></B><B><FONT face="Franklin Gothic Medium Cond" color=green
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: green">|</SPAN></FONT></B><B><FONT
face="Franklin Gothic Medium Cond" color=#003300 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: rgb(0,51,0)">
</SPAN></FONT></B><B><FONT face="Franklin Gothic Medium Cond" color=black
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black">Pathfinder
Engineers LLP</SPAN></FONT></B></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial color=black size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Mechanical
Engineer</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial color=black size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 3pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Arial color=black size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">3300 Monroe Ave.,
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