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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=000240021-14092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Dear List folk,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=000240021-14092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I
recall a post that might have occurred about two - four months ago, in which
someone mentioned a film or membrane that was applied to the pitched portion of
an attic roof. The film had radiation blocking properties or something
like that (I wasn't interested at the time).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=000240021-14092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=000240021-14092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>If my
memory is correct, will someone point me toward that post or a source which
describes that product?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=000240021-14092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=000240021-14092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Thanks
in advance.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=000240021-14092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><B
style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><FONT size=4>The Building Performance
Team<BR></FONT></B><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">James V. Dirkes II,
P.E., LEED AP<BR></B>1631 Acacia Drive NW<BR>Grand Rapids, MI 49504<BR>616
450 8653<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Julia
Beabout<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 10, 2008 11:57 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
Paul Riemer; Karen Walkerman; Eric Youngson<BR><B>Cc:</B>
bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org;
bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Bldg-sim] District
Thermal System<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif">
<DIV>Let me reiterate, that I have not submitted my model yet to
LEED. So, I don't have any feedback from them regarding the validity
of my take on things. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In aswer to your question: Yes and no. :)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The way I see things:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>For Step 1, the DES document talks about using a "market" rate for the
DES utilities. So, my take on that is that if there is a general
prevailing rate for these utilities in your area, that should be used in Step
1. Where as the intent for Step 2 seems to be to use info (i.e. a
rate or other method as discussed below) that reflects your plant's actual
efficiency. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In theory, for Step 1, the rate shouldn't matter since it's effect is
neutralized by using it in both the proposed and baseline models. However,
I'm thinking there may be a situation where if you have a
really stellar (i.e. low CHW, steam, HW rate) or poor (i.e. high CHW,
steam, or HW rate) performing proposed central plant and you use that rate in
Step 1 in both the proposed and baseline models, it may impact your results in
Step 1. Although, again, in theory, it shouldn't matter. But,
as I do more models, it seems that the relationship between $
saved and the % saved is not linear - i.e. as you demonstrate more and
more savings, it seems easier to get to the next LEED increment with smaller
amounts of deltas - and vice versa (which to some degree makes sense
since dividing by smaller numbers). But, I'm thinking this
effect could impact your savings in Step 1 and thus your ability to even get to
Step 2. But, maybe I'm off base here. I'm speculating at this point
in that regard.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>That being said, it does seem that the rate you used in Step 1 could
be the same rate used in Step 2 for your proposed building and thus, the
performance shown for the proposed building models on the LEED
templates could be the same in both Steps. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Another idea I had was that the DES rate could be used to
back calculate the overall COP/efficiency of your plant. And then use
those figures in your proposed model for Step 2. It may be easier to
adjust those rates for distribution losses etc. All this assumes that your
DES rate is based on metered data and actual production costs. It
seems LEED may want some demonstration of this. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----<BR>From: Paul Riemer
<Paul.Riemer@dunhameng.com><BR>To: Julia Beabout
<juliabeabout@yahoo.com>; Karen Walkerman <kwalkerman@gmail.com>;
Eric Youngson <ericy@pae-engineers.com><BR>Cc:
"bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" <bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org>;
"bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org"
<bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org><BR>Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008
11:07:16 AM<BR>Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] District Thermal System<BR><BR>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=013135614-10092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Julia,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=013135614-10092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=013135614-10092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Thank you for your comments. Please allow me to ask a
bit more.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=013135614-10092008></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=013135614-10092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Are you stating that Table 1.8.2(b) at the bottom of
your Step 2 EAc1 template will have an energy type line item of "hot
water", "steam", or "chilled water"? If so, will the numeric energy use
value (e.g. 1,234 MBtu) be exactly the same as in Step 1's EAc1 template?
Meaning the only differences between the proposed columns of the two
submittal templates will be the dollar costs of the DES energy stream and
total costs?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=013135614-10092008></SPAN><SPAN
class=013135614-10092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=013135614-10092008></SPAN><SPAN
class=013135614-10092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Paul
Riemer</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
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<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Julia
Beabout<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 10, 2008 9:32 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
Karen Walkerman; Eric Youngson<BR><B>Cc:</B> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org;
bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Bldg-sim] District
Thermal System<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif">
<DIV>I just finished my first DES project (not submitted yet, though) and
have a couple more in the works. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I agree with the interpretations below especially with respect to Step 2
and the utilization of the DES purchased rates as an acceptable means of
reflecting the prposed/actual central plant's efficiency in the proposed
energy model. Although, the DES purchased rates should reflect/be
adjusted for the items Karen mentions. Additionally, I'd
recommend confirming that the DES rate includes all the central
plant's bits and pieces. The maintenance costs should also be
extracted from the DES rate if possible. (The DES document seems to
clarify that the maintenance costs do not need to be included. So, if
those can be extracted that will be more of an apples to apples comparison
with the baseline model and work in your proposed model's favor). </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In my estimation, the above method provides the most expedient,
realistic and accurate method of determining the central plant's
efficiency. The trick is that that info is not always available -
especially in a campus situation. So, in that case you may need to use
one of the other methods of modeling the central plant discussed in the DES
document: other metering data, modeling of the central plant equipment,
etc. However, sometimes even this data can be hard to come by
and/or is not within the project's ability or budget to determine or
model. So, in that type of situation, the default central plant
efficiency values provided in the DES document could be used. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><BR>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">-----
Original Message ----<BR>From: Karen Walkerman
<kwalkerman@gmail.com><BR>To: Eric Youngson
<ericy@pae-engineers.com><BR>Cc: bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org;
bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org<BR>Sent: Tuesday, September 9, 2008 3:08:28
PM<BR>Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] District Thermal System<BR><BR>
<DIV dir=ltr>I am also in the middle of a DES project at the moment. The
way that I interpreted Step 1 and 2 is as follows:<BR><BR>Step
1:<BR><BR>Baseline: all downstream (on-site) equipment, envelope components,
etc, as in Appendix G. heating and cooling is purchased from a DES
system.<BR>Proposed: all downstream (on-site) equipment, envelope components,
etc, as designed. Heating and cooling is purchased from a DES
system.<BR><BR>Step 2:<BR><BR>Baseline: all equipment is modeled as
on-site. Boilers and Chillers are to be modeled as designed in Appendix
G. Utility rates are to be local utility rates<BR>Proposed: building is
to be modeled as built. Heating and cooling is purchased from a DES
system, energy costs must take into account DES production and transmission
losses.<BR><BR>In my opinion, the vocabulary in Table 1 is confusing, but the
guidelines on pages 5 and 6 seem pretty clear. Am I on the same page as
everyone else
here?<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR><BR>--<BR>Karen<BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>