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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=632081614-12092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Julia,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=632081614-12092008></SPAN><SPAN
class=632081614-12092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=632081614-12092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>I have been a bit up in arms about how this document
will apply to s</FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=632081614-12092008><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>ome of the DESs serving our
client community who are perhaps a bit unique in doing things
like:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=632081614-12092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>- billing buildings only on peak demand
(not consumption)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=632081614-12092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>- generating chilled water from waste heat outside of CHP
situation</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=632081614-12092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>- generating heat by burning some rather cheap things
including garbage</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=632081614-12092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2> (if they get paid to take it and burn
it, probably best to just count it as free and not press the luck on a
negative fuel cost) </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=632081614-12092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=632081614-12092008><FONT><SPAN class=632081614-12092008>I have been
assuming that the Step 2 template would have to include the proposed DES energy
consumption documented in primary sources like electricity and natural gas
and the corresponding costs extended from those specific consumption
numbers. </SPAN></FONT></SPAN>T<SPAN class=632081614-12092008>hat
could get pretty complicated for some of the above
scenarios.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=632081614-12092008></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=632081614-12092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=632081614-12092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Your tact looks considerably simpler and could remain
abstracted above my questions about detailed fuel sources and detailed
utility rates.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=632081614-12092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=632081614-12092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=632081614-12092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=632081614-12092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Thank you all for your comments so far and please do share
if you have a Step 2 approach reviewed.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=632081614-12092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=632081614-12092008></SPAN></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=632081614-12092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=632081614-12092008>Paul
Riemer</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=632081614-12092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=632081614-12092008></SPAN></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=632081614-12092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=632081614-12092008></SPAN></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=632081614-12092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=632081614-12092008></SPAN></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=632081614-12092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=632081614-12092008></SPAN></FONT></SPAN> </DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Julia Beabout
[mailto:juliabeabout@yahoo.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 10, 2008
10:57 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Paul Riemer; Karen Walkerman; Eric
Youngson<BR><B>Cc:</B> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org;
bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Bldg-sim] District
Thermal System<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif">
<DIV>Let me reiterate, that I have not submitted my model yet to
LEED. So, I don't have any feedback from them regarding
the validity of my take on things. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In aswer to your question: Yes and no. :)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The way I see things:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>For Step 1, the DES document talks about using a "market" rate for
the DES utilities. So, my take on that is that if there is a general
prevailing rate for these utilities in your area, that should be used in Step
1. Where as the intent for Step 2 seems to be to use info (i.e. a
rate or other method as discussed below) that reflects your plant's actual
efficiency. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In theory, for Step 1, the rate shouldn't matter since it's effect
is neutralized by using it in both the proposed and baseline models.
However, I'm thinking there may be a situation where if you have a
really stellar (i.e. low CHW, steam, HW rate) or poor (i.e. high
CHW, steam, or HW rate) performing proposed central plant and you use that
rate in Step 1 in both the proposed and baseline models, it may impact your
results in Step 1. Although, again, in theory, it shouldn't
matter. But, as I do more models, it seems that
the relationship between $ saved and the % saved is not linear -
i.e. as you demonstrate more and more savings, it seems easier to get to
the next LEED increment with smaller amounts of deltas - and vice
versa (which to some degree makes sense since dividing by smaller
numbers). But, I'm thinking this effect could impact your
savings in Step 1 and thus your ability to even get to Step 2. But,
maybe I'm off base here. I'm speculating at this point in that
regard.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>That being said, it does seem that the rate you used in Step 1 could
be the same rate used in Step 2 for your proposed building and thus, the
performance shown for the proposed building models on the LEED
templates could be the same in both Steps. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Another idea I had was that the DES rate could be used to
back calculate the overall COP/efficiency of your plant. And then use
those figures in your proposed model for Step 2. It may be easier to
adjust those rates for distribution losses etc. All this assumes that
your DES rate is based on metered data and actual production costs.
It seems LEED may want some demonstration of this. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----<BR>From: Paul Riemer
<Paul.Riemer@dunhameng.com><BR>To: Julia Beabout
<juliabeabout@yahoo.com>; Karen Walkerman <kwalkerman@gmail.com>;
Eric Youngson <ericy@pae-engineers.com><BR>Cc:
"bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" <bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org>;
"bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org"
<bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org><BR>Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008
11:07:16 AM<BR>Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] District Thermal System<BR><BR>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=013135614-10092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Julia,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=013135614-10092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=013135614-10092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Thank you for your comments. Please allow me to ask
a bit more.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=013135614-10092008></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=013135614-10092008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Are you stating that Table 1.8.2(b) at the bottom of
your Step 2 EAc1 template will have an energy type line item of "hot
water", "steam", or "chilled water"? If so, will the numeric energy use
value (e.g. 1,234 MBtu) be exactly the same as in Step 1's EAc1
template? Meaning the only differences between the proposed
columns of the two submittal templates will be the dollar costs of
the DES energy stream and total costs?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=013135614-10092008></SPAN><SPAN
class=013135614-10092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=013135614-10092008></SPAN><SPAN
class=013135614-10092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Paul
Riemer</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Julia
Beabout<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 10, 2008 9:32 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
Karen Walkerman; Eric Youngson<BR><B>Cc:</B> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org;
bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Bldg-sim] District
Thermal System<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif">
<DIV>I just finished my first DES project (not submitted yet,
though) and have a couple more in the works. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I agree with the interpretations below especially with respect to Step
2 and the utilization of the DES purchased rates as an acceptable means
of reflecting the prposed/actual central plant's efficiency in the proposed
energy model. Although, the DES purchased rates should reflect/be
adjusted for the items Karen mentions.
Additionally, I'd recommend confirming that the DES rate includes
all the central plant's bits and pieces. The maintenance
costs should also be extracted from the DES rate if possible. (The DES
document seems to clarify that the maintenance costs do not need to be
included. So, if those can be extracted that will be more of an apples
to apples comparison with the baseline model and work in your proposed
model's favor). </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In my estimation, the above method provides the most expedient,
realistic and accurate method of determining the central plant's
efficiency. The trick is that that info is not always available -
especially in a campus situation. So, in that case you may need to use
one of the other methods of modeling the central plant discussed in the DES
document: other metering data, modeling of the central plant equipment,
etc. However, sometimes even this data can be hard to come
by and/or is not within the project's ability or budget to determine or
model. So, in that type of situation, the default central plant
efficiency values provided in the DES document could be used. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><BR>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">-----
Original Message ----<BR>From: Karen Walkerman
<kwalkerman@gmail.com><BR>To: Eric Youngson
<ericy@pae-engineers.com><BR>Cc: bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org;
bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org<BR>Sent: Tuesday, September 9, 2008 3:08:28
PM<BR>Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] District Thermal System<BR><BR>
<DIV dir=ltr>I am also in the middle of a DES project at the moment.
The way that I interpreted Step 1 and 2 is as follows:<BR><BR>Step
1:<BR><BR>Baseline: all downstream (on-site) equipment, envelope components,
etc, as in Appendix G. heating and cooling is purchased from a DES
system.<BR>Proposed: all downstream (on-site) equipment, envelope
components, etc, as designed. Heating and cooling is purchased from a
DES system.<BR><BR>Step 2:<BR><BR>Baseline: all equipment is modeled as
on-site. Boilers and Chillers are to be modeled as designed in
Appendix G. Utility rates are to be local utility rates<BR>Proposed:
building is to be modeled as built. Heating and cooling is purchased
from a DES system, energy costs must take into account DES production and
transmission losses.<BR><BR>In my opinion, the vocabulary in Table 1 is
confusing, but the guidelines on pages 5 and 6 seem pretty clear. Am I
on the same page as everyone else
here?<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR><BR>--<BR>Karen<BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>