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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>A variable that has a major affect on geoexchange
well field performance is the amount of subsurface water movement through the
well field; unfortunately it’s not easy (or possible) to determine the actual
affect the subsurface water will have on the field. Our typical fields consist
of wells that are somewhere between 150’ to 400’ deep with capacity of
175ft/ton for a grouted well. We monitor well field supply and return water temperatures
for many sites and with out a doubt, fields with subsurface water operate much,
much butter than dry sites. If your site is in a hot/wet climent (i.e.
Flordia), I would think a geoexchange is a valid system, (note, I have not
designed a geothermal system in FL). On the other hand if you’re in a hot dry
climate, you may want to rethink your system.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=green face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:green'>Mark R. Seibert, PE, LEED AP</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Dan Nall
[mailto:dannall@mindspring.com] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, August 09, 2008
4:29 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Edward.A.Decker@jci.com<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Bldg-sim] GSHP in
hot climate</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>This is a heat balance problem.
While the sol-air temperature cycle (diurnal or seasonal) may have little
impact some distance below the surface, the annual average surface temperature
will have a big impact. The average temperature underground reflects the
balance of heat transfer between the surface and the very hot depths. So,
the temperature 30 ft. below grade in <st1:State w:st="on">Alaska</st1:State>
is very much colder than the temperature 30 ft. below the surface in the <st1:place
w:st="on">Arabian desert</st1:place>. Lateral heat transfer (equi-depth)
has little effect unless there is a local heat source or sink, like a
geoexchanger. There is no magic underground temperature. It is a
product of the local heat balance through a somewhat conductive continuous
medium (the ground), between the surface and the core of the earth.
Because the core is so far down, it has little effect until you get very deep,
like miles. Recommended minimum horizontal spacing between vertical wells
is on the order of 30 ft. There is a significant loss of
performance when that distance is reduced to 20 ft. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=1 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:black'>In the case of a hot climate, think about where the
heat goes. It is being delivered at a continuous, but varying rate over
the course of the year. There is little or no extraction of heat from the
ground by the heat pump. The usual assumption is that closed loop wells
need about 200 well feet per ton. In <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Phoenix</st1:place></st1:City>, for a residence, you might
expect 2000 full load hours for the year. So, a vastly
simplified calculation would yield that each foot of well has to lose
approximately 17 Btu/hr on average over the year. Some of that heat
will be conducted away and some will (temporarily, until equilibrium is
reached) serve to raise the temperature of the local earth. The
actual thermal mass of the earth is large compared with the heat
conduction coefficient, so that it takes a few years to heat up the ground.
Do the calculation and figure out what the average temperature at the
well has to be to drive that much heat flow, once the system is in equilibrium,
using the concentric pipe insulation formula to calculate the logarithmic mean
heat trtansfer surface area. I think you will be surprised at how
high it is. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><st1:PersonName w:st="on"><font size=1 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>David</span></font></st1:PersonName><font
size=1 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> Schaetzle, a former professor at ASU, has some on-hands
experience with this phenomenon, and first brought it to my attention at the
Cooling Frontiers Workshop organized by the late Jeff Cook in 2001. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 2.0pt;
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>-----Original Message----- <br>
From: Edward.A.Decker@jci.com <br>
Sent: Aug 8, 2008 2:08 PM <br>
To: Dan Nall <br>
<DANNALL@MINDSPRING.COM>Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] GSHP in hot climate <br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black'>The sol-air temperature stops
affecting the ground temperature at a distance of 5 meters (roughly). If you
are installing a vertical well, that temperature fluctuation should not have a
significant effect on the performance of the well. I also believe that the new
equilibrium temperature that you are referring too is localized to within a
meter (roughly) of the well. Can't this ground temperature stabilization can be
off-set by increasing the spacing of the vertical wells?</span></font><font
size=1 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p><font size=1 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=1 color=black face=sans-serif><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;font-weight:bold'>Dan
Nall <dannall@mindspring.com></span></font></b><font size=1
color=black face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif;
color:black'> </span></font><font size=1 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=1 color=black face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:7.5pt;
font-family:sans-serif;color:black'>08/08/2008 01:26 PM</span></font><font
size=1 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=1
color=black face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif;
color:black'>Please respond to<br>
Dan Nall <dannall@mindspring.com></span></font><font size=1
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 color=black face=sans-serif><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black'>yizhao1@vt.edu,
Edward.A.Decker@jci.com</span></font><font size=1 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><st1:PersonName w:st="on"><font size=1 color=black
face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif;
color:black'>bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</span></font></st1:PersonName><font
size=1 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:
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color:black'>Subject</span></font><font size=1 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 color=black face=sans-serif><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black'>Re: [Bldg-sim]
GSHP in hot climate</span></font><font size=1 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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</span></font><tt><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>The ground temperature is not a constant
if it is subjected to heat fluxes from a local underground source such as a
geoexchanger. think of the ground as a large thermal storage medium, with
fluxes at its extreme bottom and top boundaries. At the bottom is the hot
core of the earth. At the top is the fluctating air temperature and
radiant flux at the surface. In general, the average temperature below
ground is going to be approximately the average sol-air temperature of the surface.
The deeper you go, the smaller is the variation over time, and the more
delayed is that variation from what is going on at the surface. At a few
meters below the surface, temperature variation is very small. Deeper
still, the temperature will begin to rise. With a geoexchanger, however, local
heat flux from gthe device can cause significant variations in temperature. If
seasonal flux is not balanced, over time, the ground local to the geoexchanger
will conform to a new equilibrium temperature, sufficiently variant from the
"average" subterranean temperature to disperse that local heat flux
into the surrounding earth. Given that the thermal conducitivity of
"earth" is not enormous, that temperature differential could be quite
large.</span></font></tt><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><br>
<br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">Ground source heatpumps were initially very
popular in Phoneix. Within a year or two, they "heat soaked' the ground
surrounding their wells, and the heat pumps ceased operating. Most of
them ahve been abandoned, or supplemented by evaporative heat rejection
devices.</font></tt><br>
<br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">Think of geoexchangers as annual thermal storage
devices, not as unlimited heat sources or sinks.</font></tt><br>
<br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">-----Original Message-----</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>From: yizhao1@vt.edu</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>Sent: Aug 8, 2008 12:45 PM</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>To: Edward.A.Decker@jci.com</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>Cc: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</st1:PersonName></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] GSHP in hot climate</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>According to the source we got, the
ground temperature is 85F, although the</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>ground temper in a lots of other locations in
the world are about 55F.</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>Do you have some other source for the ground
temperature?</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>Thanks,</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>Ying</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>Quoting Edward.A.Decker@jci.com:</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> For a GSHP, the surface temperature of
the earth should not matter...</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> isn't the temperature below the surface
what makes the GSHP work? A</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> constant temperature of ~55 deg F.</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> Edward A. Decker</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> Project Development Engineer</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> Building Efficiency</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> Johnson Controls</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> <st1:Street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on">1001
Lower Landing Road</st1:address></st1:Street></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> Suite 409</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Blackwood</st1:City>,
<st1:State w:st="on">NJ</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode w:st="on">08012</st1:PostalCode></st1:place></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> Tel : 610-675-9603</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> Fax : 856-228-6296</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> Email : edward.a.decker@jci.com</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> URL : http://www.johnsoncontrols.com</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> yizhao1@vt.edu</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> Sent by:
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> 08/06/2008 11:50 PM</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> To</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> bldg-sim@onebuilding.org</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> cc</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> Subject</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> [Bldg-sim] GSHP in hot climate</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> Hi-</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> We modeled a building with GSHP in a hot
climate (zone 1), so it is almost</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> used</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> for cooling only. The air-side is PVAVS.
water-cooled condenser with GSWL.</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> The</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> cooling COP input is ~5. However, the
system performs almost the same as</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> ordinary air-cooled chillers.</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> We think the reason may be the high earth
temperature (~85 F is used due</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> to the</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> local</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> climate).</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> GSHP does not appear to be a solution for
hot climate? Any one has some</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> resource</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> of real data for this?</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>></font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> Thanks,</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>> Ying</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">>>
_______________________________________________</font></tt><br>
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