<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10pt">Yes, agreed, the new rules seem to imply that maintenance costs, overhead, profit etc do not need to be included in the analysis (in contrast some old CIRs). These costs would typcially be included in a commercial or municipal district system. However, local campus central plants may or may not have those costs figured in. Either way, it's worth inquiring about with the chw/hw provider. If they have information regarding their maintenance costs etc it would be good to extract those from the cost. It would certainly work in you proposed building's favor and be more of an apples to apples comparison with the baseline building.
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<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">----- Original Message ----<BR>From: James V. Dirkes II P.E. <jvd2pe@tds.net><BR>To: bldg-sim@onebuilding.org<BR>Sent: Wednesday, August 6, 2008 1:26:11 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] District Thermal System<BR><BR>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=750404416-06082008>Dear Bldg-Sim Community,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=750404416-06082008>Keep in mind that "Price" and "Cost" always include non-energy items like maintenance, overhead, profit, etc. That means using those values does not often give an apples-apples comparison with energy efficiency. For that reason, the new USGBC guideline seems to be clear that you may not mix the two. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><B><FONT size=4>The Building Performance Team<BR></FONT></B><B>James V. Dirkes II, P.E., LEED AP<BR></B>1631 Acacia Drive NW<BR>Grand Rapids, MI 49504<BR>616 450 8653</P>
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<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Julia Beabout<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 06, 2008 10:06 AM<BR><B>To:</B> May Xu; Jeff Haberl; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Bldg-sim] District Thermal System<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
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<DIV>Hi Xu, </DIV>
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<DIV>I think everyone is wrestling with the new rules trying to figure out how to apply them especially with respect to step 2. You can query USGBC directly (at no cost) at <A href="mailto:leedinfo@usgbc.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:leedinfo@usgbc.org">leedinfo@usgbc.org</A>. I've found that the front line customer service people are not that familiar with the new rules yet either; but, they can elevate your question to the appropriate parties. It just may take a little longer than usual to get an answer. If your question is too project specific, they may tell you to send in a CIR instead.</DIV>
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<DIV>Do you know the cost of your chilled water/hot water that the municipality is going to charge you? If so, I don't see the new Step 2 modeling requirements as a whole lot different from the old modeling rules. The NEW rules require a virtual chiller plant/boiler plant to be modeled that is reflective of the actual plant's efficiency. Under the OLD rules, if you knew the cost of the chilled water/hot water, that cost was supposedly, inherently, reflective of the plant's efficiency as long as it incorporated all production costs (i.e. chillers, cooling towers, pumps, boilers, as applicable per utility) and could be used directly in your proposed model. I would say this approach still holds true for the NEW Step 2 model. You may just need to do a little investigation with the utility and provide some back up data or a letter to LEED as a supporting
documentation stating that all the relevant production costs are reflected in the cost of chw/hw (assuming that's the case). If you wanted to dig a little deeper, you may be able to get (electrical and chw/hw water production) metering data from your utility and confirm/determine an actual cost from that. The NEW rules mention monitoring data as an allowable means of determining the virtual central plant's efficiency.....it seems like metered electrical input and production output would fit this description.</DIV>
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<DIV>Julia </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif">----- Original Message ----<BR>From: May Xu <may.xu@hok.com><BR>To: Jeff Haberl <jeffhaberl@tees.tamus.edu>; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<BR>Sent: Tuesday, August 5, 2008 10:19:55 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] District Thermal System<BR><BR>Hi Jeff, <BR><BR>Thanks, I found many useful information there, it is a very good<BR>resource! However, I didn't get relative answers regarding my question,<BR>which is about the simulation rule updated by USGBC recently about the<BR>district thermal system. Could anyone give me any suggestions?<BR><BR>Thanks a lot!<BR><BR>May<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Jeff Haberl [mailto:<A href="mailto:jeffhaberl@tees.tamus.edu" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:jeffhaberl@tees.tamus.edu">jeffhaberl@tees.tamus.edu</A>] <BR>Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 11:36 AM<BR>To: May Xu; <A
href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</A><BR>Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] District Thermal System<BR><BR>May:<BR><BR>The Laboratory has spent quite a bit of time modeling the thermal plant<BR>on the Texas A&M Campus with good success. Unfortunately, we ended up<BR>using some rather complex, interacting loop models with chiller on/off,<BR>staging algorithms, etc.<BR><BR>We have a number of papers and thesis on this at our web site<BR>"<A href="http://www-esl.tamu.edu/" target=_blank rel=nofollow>www-esl.tamu.edu</A>" look under publications.<BR><BR>Jeff<BR><BR>8=! 8=) :=) 8=) ;=) 8=) 8=( 8=) :=') 8=) 8=) 8=?<BR>Jeff S. Haberl, Ph.D.,<BR><A href="mailto:P.E.............................jhaberl@esl.tamu.edu" target=_blank rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:P.E.............................jhaberl@esl.tamu.edu">P.E.............................jhaberl@esl.tamu.edu</A><BR>Professor......................................................Office<BR>Ph: 979-845-6507<BR>Department of Architecture.......................Lab Ph: 979-845-6065 <BR>Energy Systems Laboratory.......................FAX: 979-862-2457 <BR>Texas A&M University..............................77843-3581<BR>College Station, Texas, USA.......................URL: www-esl.tamu.edu<BR>8=/ 8=) :=) 8=) ;=) 8=) 8=() 8=) 8=? 8=) 8=) 8=) <BR><BR>________________________________<BR><BR>From: <A href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</A> on behalf of May Xu<BR>Sent: Mon 8/4/2008 4:53 AM<BR>To: <A href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</A><BR>Subject: [Bldg-sim] District Thermal System<BR><BR><BR><BR>Dear All,<BR><BR><BR><BR>I'm now working on a project using Districted Heating System provided by<BR>a municipal system. The municipal system is working for a very large<BR>areas providing steam for about hundred buildings. And my building is<BR>one of them.<BR><BR><BR><BR>According to the latest update issued by USGBC<BR>(<A href="https://www.usgbc.org/ShowFile.aspx?DocumentID=4176" target=_blank rel=nofollow>https://www.usgbc.org/ShowFile.aspx?DocumentID=4176</A>), the modeling will<BR>be implemented by two steps. My question is about Step-2 (Aggregate<BR>Building/DES Scenario). In step-2, the energy source of Proposed<BR>Building is virtual on-site chiller representing upstream DC system. The<BR>document also issues "The DES central plant itself shall always be<BR>modeled as a total, entire unit." My
understanding is that it requires<BR>to model the central plant with the full capacity that is able to<BR>provide heating for all of buildings in whole district. However, if<BR>doing so, the energy consumption of the proposed building may be quite<BR>quite high, since it includes the energy consumption of the whole<BR>heating plant!! But my building is only one of the 100 buildings that<BR>are heated by the central plant. It is weird and I don't think it is<BR>what USGBC asked for. Does anyone know what shall I do for the proposed<BR>building in Step-2? <BR><BR><BR><BR>Thank you.<BR><BR>May Xu, LEED(r)AP<BR>Project Engineer - Sustainable Design<BR><BR>HOK<BR>Suite 3705A, Ciro` s Plaza,<BR>388 Nan Jing West Road,<BR>Shanghai, 200003, PRC <BR><BR>Tel: (86 21) 6334.6181 ext. 2230 <BR>Fax: (86 21) 6334.6182<BR><BR><BR><BR><A href="http://www.hok.com/" target=_blank rel=nofollow>www.hok.com</A> <<A href="http://www.hok.com/"
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