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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=750404416-06082008>Dear Bldg-Sim Community,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=750404416-06082008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=750404416-06082008>Keep in mind that "Price" and "Cost" always include
non-energy items like maintenance, overhead, profit, etc. That means using
those values does not often give an apples-apples comparison with energy
efficiency. For that reason, the new USGBC guideline seems to be clear
that you may not mix the two. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><B
style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><FONT size=4>The Building Performance
Team<BR></FONT></B><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">James V. Dirkes II,
P.E., LEED AP<BR></B>1631 Acacia Drive NW<BR>Grand Rapids, MI 49504<BR>616
450 8653<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Julia
Beabout<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 06, 2008 10:06 AM<BR><B>To:</B> May
Xu; Jeff Haberl; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[Bldg-sim] District Thermal System<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif">
<DIV>Hi Xu, </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>I think everyone is wrestling with the new rules trying to figure out how
to apply them especially with respect to step 2. You can query USGBC
directly (at no cost) at <A
href="mailto:leedinfo@usgbc.org">leedinfo@usgbc.org</A>. I've found that
the front line customer service people are not that familiar with the new rules
yet either; but, they can elevate your question to the appropriate
parties. It just may take a little longer than usual to get an
answer. If your question is too project specific, they may tell you to
send in a CIR instead.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Do you know the cost of your chilled water/hot water that the
municipality is going to charge you? If so, I don't see the new Step
2 modeling requirements as a whole lot different from the old modeling
rules. The NEW rules require a virtual chiller plant/boiler
plant to be modeled that is reflective of the actual plant's
efficiency. Under the OLD rules, if you knew the cost of
the chilled water/hot water, that cost was supposedly,
inherently, reflective of the plant's efficiency as long as it incorporated all
production costs (i.e. chillers, cooling towers, pumps, boilers, as applicable
per utility) and could be used directly in your proposed model. I
would say this approach still holds true for the NEW Step 2
model. You may just need to do a little investigation with the utility and
provide some back up data or a letter to LEED as a supporting documentation
stating that all the relevant production costs are reflected in the cost of
chw/hw (assuming that's the case). If you wanted to dig a little
deeper, you may be able to get (electrical and chw/hw water production)
metering data from your utility and confirm/determine an actual cost from
that. The NEW rules mention monitoring data as an
allowable means of determining the virtual central plant's
efficiency.....it seems like metered electrical input and production
output would fit this description.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Julia </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><FONT
color=#0000ff></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff></FONT><BR>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif">-----
Original Message ----<BR>From: May Xu <may.xu@hok.com><BR>To: Jeff Haberl
<jeffhaberl@tees.tamus.edu>; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<BR>Sent:
Tuesday, August 5, 2008 10:19:55 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] District Thermal
System<BR><BR>Hi Jeff, <BR><BR>Thanks, I found many useful information there, it
is a very good<BR>resource! However, I didn't get relative answers regarding my
question,<BR>which is about the simulation rule updated by USGBC recently about
the<BR>district thermal system. Could anyone give me any
suggestions?<BR><BR>Thanks a lot!<BR><BR>May<BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: Jeff Haberl [mailto:<A
href="mailto:jeffhaberl@tees.tamus.edu"
ymailto="mailto:jeffhaberl@tees.tamus.edu">jeffhaberl@tees.tamus.edu</A>]
<BR>Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 11:36 AM<BR>To: May Xu; <A
href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org"
ymailto="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</A><BR>Subject:
RE: [Bldg-sim] District Thermal System<BR><BR>May:<BR><BR>The Laboratory has
spent quite a bit of time modeling the thermal plant<BR>on the Texas A&M
Campus with good success. Unfortunately, we ended up<BR>using some rather
complex, interacting loop models with chiller on/off,<BR>staging algorithms,
etc.<BR><BR>We have a number of papers and thesis on this at our web site<BR>"<A
href="http://www-esl.tamu.edu/" target=_blank>www-esl.tamu.edu</A>" look under
publications.<BR><BR>Jeff<BR><BR>8=! 8=) :=) 8=) ;=) 8=) 8=( 8=) :=') 8=) 8=)
8=?<BR>Jeff S. Haberl, Ph.D.,<BR><A
href="mailto:P.E.............................jhaberl@esl.tamu.edu"
ymailto="mailto:P.E.............................jhaberl@esl.tamu.edu">P.E.............................jhaberl@esl.tamu.edu</A><BR>Professor......................................................Office<BR>Ph:
979-845-6507<BR>Department of Architecture.......................Lab Ph:
979-845-6065 <BR>Energy Systems Laboratory.......................FAX:
979-862-2457 <BR>Texas A&M
University..............................77843-3581<BR>College Station, Texas,
USA.......................URL: www-esl.tamu.edu<BR>8=/ 8=) :=) 8=) ;=) 8=) 8=()
8=) 8=? 8=) 8=) 8=) <BR><BR>________________________________<BR><BR>From: <A
href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
ymailto="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</A>
on behalf of May Xu<BR>Sent: Mon 8/4/2008 4:53 AM<BR>To: <A
href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org"
ymailto="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</A><BR>Subject:
[Bldg-sim] District Thermal System<BR><BR><BR><BR>Dear All,<BR><BR><BR><BR>I'm
now working on a project using Districted Heating System provided by<BR>a
municipal system. The municipal system is working for a very large<BR>areas
providing steam for about hundred buildings. And my building is<BR>one of
them.<BR><BR><BR><BR>According to the latest update issued by USGBC<BR>(<A
href="https://www.usgbc.org/ShowFile.aspx?DocumentID=4176"
target=_blank>https://www.usgbc.org/ShowFile.aspx?DocumentID=4176</A>), the
modeling will<BR>be implemented by two steps. My question is about Step-2
(Aggregate<BR>Building/DES Scenario). In step-2, the energy source of
Proposed<BR>Building is virtual on-site chiller representing upstream DC system.
The<BR>document also issues "The DES central plant itself shall always
be<BR>modeled as a total, entire unit." My understanding is that it
requires<BR>to model the central plant with the full capacity that is able
to<BR>provide heating for all of buildings in whole district. However,
if<BR>doing so, the energy consumption of the proposed building may be
quite<BR>quite high, since it includes the energy consumption of the
whole<BR>heating plant!! But my building is only one of the 100 buildings
that<BR>are heated by the central plant. It is weird and I don't
think it is<BR>what USGBC asked for. Does anyone know what shall I do for the
proposed<BR>building in Step-2? <BR><BR><BR><BR>Thank you.<BR><BR>May Xu,
LEED(r)AP<BR>Project Engineer - Sustainable Design<BR><BR>HOK<BR>Suite 3705A,
Ciro` s Plaza,<BR>388 Nan Jing West Road,<BR>Shanghai, 200003, PRC
<BR><BR>Tel: (86 21) 6334.6181 ext. 2230 <BR>Fax: (86 21)
6334.6182<BR><BR><BR><BR><A href="http://www.hok.com/"
target=_blank>www.hok.com</A> <<A href="http://www.hok.com/"
target=_blank>http://www.hok.com/</A>> <BR><A
href="http://www.hokasiapacific.com/" target=_blank>www.hokasiapacific.com</A>
<<A href="http://www.hokasiapacific.com/"
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