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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I am trying to model cooling tower water
to chilled water free-cooling (bypass the chiller) in eQuest. If anyone has
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Bill<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, March 27, 2008
3:35 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Bldg-sim] FW: Ice
storage chilling system - getting LEEDpoints?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>One thing to be careful of when
considering the impact of low temperature air distribution on energy use:
Depending on climate, many hours of economizer cooling may be lost. This
can be a huge impact in mild climates, and should be evaluated in all climates
that have moderate temperatures for at least a few months a year. The
increased plant energy use from the loss of "free" cooling can dwarf
the air transport savings, unless this is accounted for in the design and
control of the air systems.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>--Bill</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>William E. Koran, P.E.</span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>Senior Engineer</span></font><font size=2
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
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color:black'> <br>
</span></font><font size=1 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:7.5pt;
font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>Quantum Energy Services and Technologies</span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>Voice: 503-557-7828</span></font><font size=2
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>Fax: 510-540-7268</span></font><font size=2
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color:blue'><a href="http://www.quest-world.com/"
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title="http://www.quest-world.com/"><span style='font-family:Tahoma'>www.quest-world.com</span></font></a></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Keith Swartz<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, March 26, 2008
7:04 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [Bldg-sim] FW: Ice
storage chilling system - getting LEED points?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Bill makes a good point about taking
advantage of the lower temperature of the ice system. I worked on a project
that had an ice storage system that took advantage of the colder temperature.
We made the chilled water supply temperature 38F and return temperature 62F
(DeltaT=24F). The pumping power saved was pretty significant, since the chilled
water had to be pumped underground more than 1200 feet from the Chiller Plant
to the main building. The lower chilled water temperature allowed me to use
lower supply air temperature at the air handlers, which allowed me to select
smaller air handlers (due to lower cfm), which allowed me to actually fit the
air handlers into the allotted space! So there are more benefits than just
energy cost benefits…if you take advantage of the opportunities.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>Sincerely,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>Keith Swartz, PE, LEED® AP<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:PlaceName w:st="on"><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Energy</span></font></st1:PlaceName><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">Center</st1:PlaceType> of <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:State w:st="on">Wisconsin</st1:State></st1:place><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:Street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on"><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>455 Science Drive</span></font></st1:address></st1:Street><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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w:st="on"><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Suite</span></font></st1:Street></st1:address><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'> 200</span></font></st1:address><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>Madison</span></font></st1:City><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>, <st1:State
w:st="on">WI</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode w:st="on">53711</st1:PostalCode></span></font></st1:place><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
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10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Phone: 608-238-8276 ext. 123<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> William
Bahnfleth [mailto:wbahnfleth@psu.edu] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, March 23, 2008 1:36
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Ice
storage chilling system - getting LEED points?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>I doubt that night-time
wet bulb depression is sufficient in most places to compensate for the difference
between saturated evaporating temperatures associated with typical chilled
water and ice production systems. However, break-even seems to be
attainable for air-cooled systems.<br>
<br>
Variable speed compressors and thermal storage are a good match because VS
operation maximized the impact of a lift reduction.<br>
<br>
A key to saving energy with ice storage or any other low temperature production
scheme is to take advantage of the low temperature source. The most
common examples are low temperature water distribution and low temperature air
distribution to achieve larger temperature differences and reduce transport
energy consumption.<br>
<br>
Other benefits of thermal storage that are significant, but frequently
poorly quantified, if quantified at all, are load management effects--more
efficient part loading, preferential loading of more efficient equipment,
etc.<br>
<br>
Bill Bahnfleth<br>
<br>
At 01:41 PM 3/23/2008, Wyman, Kevin
L UTPWR
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Content-class: urn:content-classes:message<br>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;<br>
<X-TAB> </X-TAB>
boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C88D0D.0FE7F528"<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Agree with everything
David pointed out. While ice making chillers would use more energy to create
the colder temperatures needed for phase change, they often do this at night
when cooling tower doesn't work as hard and ambients drop (in some climates) so
net energy is often less. In other words, the kWh consumption can be less as
well as peak kW savings under rate tarriff considerations.<br>
<br>
<br>
Kevin L. Wyman, P.E.<br>
LEED AP<br>
On-Site Power Product Management<br>
UTC Power<br>
195 Governor's Highway<br>
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">South Windsor</st1:City>, <st1:State
w:st="on">CT</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode w:st="on">06074</st1:PostalCode></st1:place><br>
(860) 727-7020 (V)<br>
(860) 660-0723 (F)<br>
(860) 882-9595 (M)<br>
Kevin.wyman@utcpower.com<br>
<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
<bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org><br>
To: bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org <bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org><br>
Sent: Sun Mar 23 09:32:47 2008<br>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Ice storage chilling system - getting LEED points?<br>
<br>
For EAC1, the comparison is about energy cost. The ice storage will save
money IF you have time-of-day electricity rates in place. If you are
using the EIA state average rate data, it won't show a savings.<br>
<br>
Ice storage actually uses more energy not less -- you can get more out of the
ice, but remember that you have to spend the same amount of refrigeration
energy to make the ice, plus the chiller will be working against unfavorable
temperatures and fluid properties which will use more compressor energy
compared to conventional chilled water, per ton-hr.<br>
<br>
Maybe there is merit if you can say what savings there are from night-time
electricity compared to day-time electricity, or if there is some major problem
with electricity distribution in your area.<br>
<br>
Your client may be interested in first cost savings if you design a partial
storage system, but don't expect any LEED credit for that.<br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
<br>
From: bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org on behalf of Sasa Pantic<br>
Sent: Sat 3/22/2008 2:21 PM<br>
To: bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Ice storage chilling system - getting LEED points?<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear colleagues,<br>
<br>
I would kindly ask for an information please.<br>
I am thinking of designing an ice storage chilling system that would generate
ice at night, during low electricity rates, and will be used during the following
day for to reduce peak cooling demands of the building.<br>
<br>
Could I get LEED credits in Energy and Atmosphere section for reducing the
cooling cost?<br>
<br>
In addition, taking into account that ice can absorb more heat than that of
water and therefore will lead to much more chilling capaciity or
"tons" of refrigeration from the same size/horsepower rating of
compressors than a conventional type of chiller.<br>
I gues I could get more LEED credits for being environmentally friendly?<br>
<br>
Please advise.<br>
Thanks muchly.<br>
<br>
Regards Sasa Pantic<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
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