<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:st1="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"
xmlns:ns0="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
<meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)">
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style>
<![endif]--><o:SmartTagType
namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="country-region"/>
<o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name="PostalCode"/>
<o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name="City"/>
<o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name="Street"/>
<o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name="State"/>
<o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name="PlaceType"/>
<o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name="PlaceName"/>
<o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name="place"/>
<o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name="address"/>
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
</style>
<![endif]-->
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Helvetica;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
span.EmailStyle18
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:Arial;
color:navy;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
</head>
<body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=blue>
<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Loren,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I haven’t had to get into that much
detail for my energy models (not LEED), so I won’t be much help on this. I
suggest finding out from the manufacturer if the published EER includes fan
power or not.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>Sincerely,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>Keith Swartz, PE, LEED® AP<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><ns0:PlaceName w:insAuthor="Keith Swartz"
w:insDate="2008-03-11T17:00:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="Keith Swartz"
w:endInsDate="2008-03-11T17:00:00Z"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on"><font color=navy><span
style='color:navy'>Energy</span></font></st1:PlaceName></ns0:PlaceName><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'> </span></font><ns0:PlaceType
w:insAuthor="Keith Swartz" w:insDate="2008-03-11T17:00:00Z"
w:endInsAuthor="Keith Swartz" w:endInsDate="2008-03-11T17:00:00Z"><st1:PlaceType
w:st="on"><font color=navy><span style='color:navy'>Center</span></font></st1:PlaceType></ns0:PlaceType><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'> of </span></font><ns0:place
w:insAuthor="Keith Swartz" w:insDate="2008-03-11T17:00:00Z"
w:endInsAuthor="Keith Swartz" w:endInsDate="2008-03-11T17:00:00Z"><ns0:State
w:insAuthor="Keith Swartz" w:insDate="2008-03-11T17:00:00Z"
w:endInsAuthor="Keith Swartz" w:endInsDate="2008-03-11T17:00:00Z"><st1:State
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"><font color=navy><span style='color:navy'>Wisconsin</span></font></st1:place></st1:State></ns0:State></ns0:place><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><ns0:Street w:insAuthor="Keith Swartz"
w:insDate="2008-03-11T17:00:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="Keith Swartz"
w:endInsDate="2008-03-11T17:00:00Z"><ns0:address w:insAuthor="Keith Swartz"
w:insDate="2008-03-11T17:00:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="Keith Swartz"
w:endInsDate="2008-03-11T17:00:00Z"><st1:Street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on"><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'>455 Science Drive</span></font></st1:address></st1:Street></ns0:address></ns0:Street><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><ns0:address w:insAuthor="Keith Swartz"
w:insDate="2008-03-11T17:00:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="Keith Swartz"
w:endInsDate="2008-03-11T17:00:00Z"><ns0:Street w:insAuthor="Keith Swartz"
w:insDate="2008-03-11T17:00:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="Keith Swartz"
w:endInsDate="2008-03-11T17:00:00Z"><st1:address w:st="on"><st1:Street w:st="on"><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'>Suite</span></font></st1:Street></ns0:Street></st1:address><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'> 200</span></font></ns0:address><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><ns0:place w:insAuthor="Keith Swartz"
w:insDate="2008-03-11T17:00:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="Keith Swartz"
w:endInsDate="2008-03-11T17:00:00Z"><ns0:City w:insAuthor="Keith Swartz"
w:insDate="2008-03-11T17:00:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="Keith Swartz"
w:endInsDate="2008-03-11T17:00:00Z"><font color=navy><span style='color:navy'>Madison</span></font></ns0:City><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'>, </span></font><ns0:State
w:insAuthor="Keith Swartz" w:insDate="2008-03-11T17:00:00Z"
w:endInsAuthor="Keith Swartz" w:endInsDate="2008-03-11T17:00:00Z"><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'>WI</span></font></ns0:State><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'> </span></font><ns0:PostalCode
w:insAuthor="Keith Swartz" w:insDate="2008-03-11T17:00:00Z"
w:endInsAuthor="Keith Swartz" w:endInsDate="2008-03-11T17:00:00Z"><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'>53711</span></font></ns0:PostalCode></ns0:place><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Phone: 608-238-8276 ext. 123<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Fax: 608-238-0523<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><a href="http://www.ecw.org/">www.ecw.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The Energy Center of Wisconsin is an
independent, nonprofit organization that seeks solutions to energy challenges.</span></font><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Loren Appin
[mailto:lorenappin@gmail.com] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, March 11, 2008 7:30
AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Keith Swartz<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Bldg-sim] FW:
Residential or Nonresidental? And sizing for PTAC units.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Thank you both Andrew and
Keith,<br>
<br>
Understanding the exceptions, and also correct calculations for the EER (didn't
realize there was a limit of 15,000 BTU for the calculation until I read the
small print!) are very helpful. It brings up another question, now,
though: <br>
<br>
When modeling a PTAC unit, and taking this EER value, would you use this to
include the supply fan energy? G.3.1.2.1 states that you should separate
it into various components, which confuses me a bit. I know this is
getting down to minutia, however, just trying to make sure I'm doing this
correctly. If this is something that is common practice to look over, and
just make sure to include the supply fan efficiencies within the EER for entire
unit (something that would make sense to me as it is a packaged unit), also let
me know.<br>
<br>
Thanks again,<br>
<br>
Loren<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 6:35 PM, Keith Swartz <<a
href="mailto:kswartz@ecw.org">kswartz@ecw.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div link=blue vlink=blue>
<div>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>Loren,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>One of the notes under Table G3.1.1A of ASHRAE 90.1-2004
states, "Residential building types include dormitory, hotel, motel, and
multifamily. Residential space types include guest rooms, living quarters,
private living space, and sleeping quarters. Other building and space types are
considered nonresidential." The User's Manual also says, "If a
building has both residential and nonresidential spaces, for instance a
residential tower with retail and restaurants at the base, then the HVAC system
type is determined separately for the residential and nonresidential portions."</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>I recently did an energy model for a motel that had first
floor retail spaces, a swimming pool, an indoor parking garage, and a fairly
large lobby. I used realistic systems for these spaces instead of PTACs or
PTHPs. For a different motel I modeled, the nonresidential spaces were rather
insignificant, so I used PTHPs throughout.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>Regarding which capacity to use for the EER calculation, I
would use realistic capacities. For example, for the space that needs 40
kBTU/h, I would assume that there would be two 20 kBTU/h units and use 20
kBTU/h for the capacity in the EER equation.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>I think the decision to use an average EER for all the units
is a judgment call depending on how complex you want your model to be. It's the
usual trade-off between making assumptions to simplify the model or adding
complexity to get more accuracy (presumably).</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>Sincerely,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>Keith Swartz, PE, LEED® AP</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>Energy Center of Wisconsin</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>455 Science Drive</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>Suite 200</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>Madison, WI 53711</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>Phone: 608-238-8276 ext. 123</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>Fax: 608-238-0523</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'><a href="http://www.ecw.org/" target="_blank">www.ecw.org</a></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>The Energy Center of Wisconsin is an independent, nonprofit
organization that seeks solutions to energy challenges.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Loren Appin [mailto:<a
href="mailto:lorenappin@gmail.com" target="_blank">lorenappin@gmail.com</a>] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, March 09, 2008 3:31
AM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [Bldg-sim] Residential or
Nonresidental? And sizing for PTAC units.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Hi All,<br>
<br>
I'm modeling a 6 story hotel, and am confused with how I should classify the
building. The hotel is all guest rooms, and is not really mixed
use. So according to ASHRAE this seems that it would fall under the
residential category, and I would be using PTAC or PTHP systems. Under
table G3.1.1A it specifically says hotels are considered residential building
types, not just space types... so I assume I'm correct? However,
would I use a VAV or PSZ system for areas that are not technically guest rooms,
or does this not matter as a hotel is considered a residential "building
type"?<br>
<br>
<br>
Also, when modeling a PTAC system it appears to me that you would get the EER
information from 6.8.1D using the equation, however, sometimes it my system
summary gives me a peak/capacity of a unit as 30KBtu or even 40 for one room
and I know that PTAC units usually don't go much about 20. So would the
equation in this table still hold? Finally, if I am getting varying
capacities for each unit as would be expected, would you suggest taking an
average of all the systems, and then use this capacity as the one to enter into
the equation to get the EER and then apply this EER to all systems across the
board?<br>
<br>
Thanks so much for the help!<br clear=all>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='line-height:150%'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Loren Appin</span></font></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style='line-height:150%'><font size=2 color=green face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:Arial;color:green'>Energy
Engineer</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style='line-height:150%'><b><font size=2 color=green face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:Arial;color:green;
font-weight:bold'>Silpa Inc.</span></font></b><font size=2 color=green
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:Arial;
color:green'> </span></font><font size=2 color=purple face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:Arial;color:purple'><br>
</span></font><font size=1 color=green face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:
7.5pt;line-height:150%;font-family:Helvetica;color:green'>s i m p l e .
s c i e n t i f i c . s u s t a i n a b l e</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style='line-height:150%'><font size=1 color=gray face=Arial><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;line-height:150%;font-family:Arial;color:gray'>AMERICAS
| MIDDLE EAST | INDIA</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><a
href="http://www.silpa.com/" target="_blank"><font size=1 color=gray
face=Arial><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:gray'>www.silpa.com</span></font></a></span></font><font
size=1 color=gray face=Arial><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial;
color:gray'> | Mob: +971.50.9250895</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Bldg-sim mailing list<br>
<a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org</a><br>
To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a
href="mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG">BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br clear=all>
<br>
-- <br>
Loren Appin<br>
<a href="mailto:loren.appin@gmail.com">loren.appin@gmail.com</a> |
+971.50.9250895 <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>