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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000080 size=2><SPAN
class=924363713-27082007>David,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000080 size=2><SPAN
class=924363713-27082007>Thank you for your perspective.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000080 size=2><SPAN
class=924363713-27082007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000080 size=2><SPAN
class=924363713-27082007>The 2% to 5% to 7% to 10% range is interesting and
I read that as the variability in one model. So what would
that mean for the delta between two models? Has anyone studied this
relating to the ECB method or Appendix G? Is our industry's variability
due to practice a LEED point or two or more? If so what does that mean
for our overall margin of error?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000080 size=2><SPAN
class=924363713-27082007></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Verdana color=#000080
size=2><SPAN class=924363713-27082007></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Verdana
color=#000080 size=2><SPAN class=924363713-27082007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000080 size=2><SPAN
class=924363713-27082007>Heat pumps and VRV would be interesting but what about
even a VAV with reheat with reset of supply air temperature and static
pressure. And a lot of projects are presumably comparing these
systems. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000080 size=2><SPAN
class=924363713-27082007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000080 size=2><SPAN
class=924363713-27082007>The encouragement seems limited. So perhaps
the stalwarts of the industry have achieved the sweet spot between effort
and accuracy for their modeling goals. But what what about all of the new
comers to our field?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000080 size=2><SPAN
class=924363713-27082007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000080 size=2><SPAN
class=924363713-27082007>Enough with the rallying cry. Time to do the
literature search. If the best practices for zoning etc are clear
in the detailed research I want to elevate them. And if not I
want to help us get to them.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000080 size=2><SPAN
class=924363713-27082007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000080 size=2><SPAN
class=924363713-27082007>
<DIV align=left><SPAN class=141333114-30122005><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT
face=Verdana>Paul <SPAN class=SpellE>Riemer</SPAN></FONT><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'BankGothic Md BT'">THE WEIDT GROUP</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><BR><FONT
face=Verdana>952.938.1588<BR></FONT><A title=mailto:PaulR@twgi.com
href="mailto:PaulR@twgi.com"><FONT
face=Verdana>PaulR@twgi.com</FONT></A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000080 size=2><SPAN
class=924363713-27082007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000080 size=2><SPAN
class=924363713-27082007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000080 size=2><SPAN
class=924363713-27082007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000080 size=2><SPAN
class=924363713-27082007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> BLDG-SIM@gard.com
[mailto:BLDG-SIM@gard.com] <B>On Behalf Of </B>David S Eldridge<BR><B>Sent:</B>
Thursday, August 23, 2007 7:55 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
BLDG-SIM@gard.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [BLDG-SIM] Zoning Granularity in
Modeling<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I remember an example from my
BLAST support days in the BLAST User’s Manual where there was an example for a
simple building at Fort Monmouth, NJ showing the difference between a one-zone
and seven-zone model. (I think the annual difference was 5% to
7%?)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I agree with “the Paul’s” that
there are definitely going to be a large number of projects where you’ve got to
put in some detailed zoning to realistically model the building. For some
system types such as for a water-loop heat pump system (or City Multi when that
is available!), one of the premises may be that energy can be transferred from
zones that need cooling to zones that need heating. Obviously you won’t
capture this effect unless these areas are separate zones.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">So the issue of “granularity” is
going to depend a lot on the system type and building usage. If the
granularity “test” is applied to an office building where the operation is
homogeneous and all of the zones have the same internal gains and same
schedules, then maybe you get 2% to 10% difference or less between a single-zone
model and a hundred zone model. For the more complicated building or
zoning dependent system, it may be much more.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">As for a research project to study
this…it will be limited in usefulness depending on the number of variables that
you can account for in the buildings to be modeled. I sense much
extrapolation and less interpolation. Unless you are Wal-Mart or a spec
office developer.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">David<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> BLDG-SIM@gard.com
[mailto:BLDG-SIM@gard.com] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Paul Erickson<BR><B>Sent:</B>
Thursday, August 23, 2007 11:41 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
BLDG-SIM@gard.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [BLDG-SIM] Zoning Granularity in
Modeling<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">I agree
with Paul's statement that the extent of zoning often falls between
the two scenarios previously mentioned. My experience modeling complex
buildings has shown that more extensive zoning is often required, especially if
we desire to produce more "honest" and "useful" results. Paul suggests
studying the issue of granularity. Is anyone aware of work that has
been done on this topic? Has anyone made a comparison of three zoning
approaches for the same building (i.e. coarse granularity in the SD phase
modeling; coarse granularity in the detailed phase modeling; and fine/medium
granularity in the detailed phase modeling)? What sort of results are
seen? <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">With LEED, EPACT,
and code-compliance modeling on the rise, it seems that the energy modeling
community would want to affirm or reaffirm the approach to zoning
granularity that would best provide a balance of credibility (usefulness),
consistency (i.e. % savings) and value (time/budget), seeing
as many clients in the marketplace are skeptical of energy
modeling. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Paul
Erickson<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Affiliated
Engineers, Inc.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">>>> "Paul
Riemer" <PaulR@TWGI.com> 8/23/2007 10:45 am >>><BR>Thank you
Kevin & Jeff for showing everyone the extreme range of<BR>modeling
approaches in our profession. I happen to think the answer is<BR>somewhere
in the middle for most buildings types and analysis goals. <BR><BR>Given
the rise of LEED & EPACT, our industry needs more published
best<BR>practices addressing things like zoning granularity but before we
can<BR>write those we probably need to study them. <BR><BR>Would anyone like to
work together to find money and/or time to study<BR>how sensitive energy and
savings predictions are to zoning granularity<BR>or other basic modeling
practices?<BR><BR>Paul Riemer<BR>THE WEIDT GROUP<BR><BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: BLDG-SIM@gard.com [mailto:BLDG-SIM@gard.com] On Behalf Of
Jeff<BR>Haberl<BR>Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 1:56 PM<BR>To:
BLDG-SIM@gard.com<BR>Subject: [BLDG-SIM] max number of tracked modifications
exceeded<BR><BR>Why do you need so many zones? Five per floor is the usual, two
can also<BR>suffice. <BR><BR>Jeff<BR>BB 8=! 8=) :=) 8=)
;=) 8=) 8=( 8=) :=') 8=) 8=) 8=?
BB<BR><BR>Jeff S. Haberl,
Ph.D.,<BR>P.E.............................jhaberl@esl.tamu.edu<BR><BR>Professor......................................................Office<BR>Ph:
979-845-6507<BR><BR>Department of Architecture.......................Lab Ph:
979-845-6065 <BR><BR>Energy Systems Laboratory.......................FAX:
979-862-2457 <BR><BR>Texas A&M
University..............................77843-3581<BR><BR>College Station,
Texas, USA.......................URL: www-esl.tamu.edu<BR><BR>BB 8=/
8=) :=) 8=) ;=) 8=) 8=() 8=) 8=?
8=) 8=) 8= BB<BR><BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From:
BLDG-SIM@gard.com <BLDG-SIM@gard.com><BR>To: BLDG-SIM@gard.com
<BLDG-SIM@gard.com><BR>Sent: Wed Aug 22 12:29:23 2007<BR>Subject:
[BLDG-SIM] max number of tracked modifications exceeded<BR><BR>Ok, this could be
embarrassing, but I got to know.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Could anyone shed some light on
this error message I keep getting? As<BR>it turns out, I ended up with 405
zones. I heard Doe-2.1 was limited to<BR>99zones, is there a new limit for
Doe 2.2. <BR><BR><BR><BR>I was under the assumption that when modeling for LEED
certification<BR>each space in the architectural design should be modeled as a
separate<BR>space for building simulation, is this thought right or
completely<BR>wrong? Thanks for the
help.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Kevin<BR><BR><BR>=====================================================You
received this e-mail because you are subscribed<BR>to the BLDG-SIM@GARD.COM
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message to<BR>BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@GARD.COM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV><PRE><o:p> </o:p></PRE><PRE><o:p> </o:p></PRE><PRE>==================<o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE>You received this e-mail because you are subscribed <o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE>to the BLDG-SIM@GARD.COM mailing list. To unsubscribe <o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE>from this mailing list send a blank message to <o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE>BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@GARD.COM<o:p></o:p></PRE></DIV></DIV><PRE>
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