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I don't think you can deconvolute process from non-process in a rational
way as long as actual or potential coupling between process loads and
HVAC exists. On a different day, someone would want to recover
condenser heat from the refrigeration load and would take the
credit. If it affects heating and cooling loads or could be used to
affect heating or cooling energy consumption, it's hard to justify an
exclusion because both penalties and benefits could result. If it's
a different class of facility that ASHRAE 90.1 can't handle, it should
have its own standard or method equivalent to Appendix G.<br><br>
Bill Bahnfleth<br><br>
At 05:53 PM 4/12/2007, Thomas White wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><font size=2 color="#0000FF">
Greetings fellow BLDG-SIMmers,<br>
</font> <br>
<font size=2 color="#0000FF">Just a note to add. We have a similar LEED
v2.2 project for a food processing facility where there is a <b>LARGE</b>
refrigeration load. If we were to include the total refrigeration load in
both the denominator and numerator of the DEC/ECB calculation (for
percent energy cost savings), it would badly dilute the percent
savings.<br>
<br>
</font><font face="Tahoma" size=2><br>
In our LEED template submission to USGBC we opted to exclude this
"industrial load," citing Section 2.3(c) from ASHRAE 90.1-2004,
which allows for an <i>industrial process</i> classification as
follows:<br><br>
<br><br>
"The provisions of this standard [ASHRAE 90.1-2004] do not apply
to:<br><br>
(a) single family structures...<br><br>
(b) buildings that do not use either electricity or fossil
fuel...<br><br>
(c) equipment and portions of building systems that use energy primarily
to provide for industrial, manufacturing, or commercial process.<br><br>
<br><br>
In other words, we've made a <b>deliberate distinction</b> between
<i>industrial process loads</i> and <i>non-industrial/commercial building
process loads</i> such as lighting, plug-loads, and office equipment.
We've included the <i>non-industrial/commercial building process
loads</i> but not the <i>industrial process loads</i> in the DEC/ECB
calculation.<br><br>
<br><br>
No word back yet from USGBC on this approach, so we can't guarantee that
our interpretation is acceptable, but that's how we did it.<br><br>
<br><br>
..Tom<br><br>
<br><br>
<br>
<b>Thomas J. White, P.E.</b><br>
Associate<br>
Lead Engineer, Energy Services<br>
LEED<sup>®</sup> Accredited Professional<br><br>
<a href="http://www.glumac.com/">
<img src="http://www.glumac.com/glumacsig.gif" alt="[]"></a> <br><br>
320 SW Washington, Suite 200<br>
Portland, OR 97204-2640<br>
T. 503.227.5280 F. 503.274.7674 D.
503-345-6246<br><br>
<b>Thinking. Inside the building.</b><br>
</font><font face="Tahoma" size=2 color="#0000FF"><b>
<a href="http://www.glumac.com/">http://www.glumac.com</a><br>
</b></font><font face="Tahoma" size=2> <br>
<br>
</font> <br>
<font face="Tahoma" size=2> -----Original Message-----<br>
<b>From:</b> BLDG-SIM@gard.com
[<a href="mailto:BLDG-SIM@gard.com" eudora="autourl">
mailto:BLDG-SIM@gard.com</a>]<b>On Behalf Of </b>Marcus Sheffer<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 12, 2007 2:11 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> BLDG-SIM@gard.com<br>
<b>Cc:</b> yjiang_mit@yahoo.com<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [BLDG-SIM] LEED energy saving calculations for Industrial
Facility<br><br>
</font>Under LEED v2.2 you must include all of the process loads and
equipment.<br><br>
<font size=2> <br>
</font><br>
<font size=2>The post-processing you describe was used under LEED v2.1
and is not allowed under v2.2.<br>
</font><br>
<font size=2> <br>
</font><br>
<font size=2>You are correct that the opportunity for savings will be
less in this type of facility as a result. The USGBC has recognized
that this is an issue and is working on ways to address it.<br>
</font><br>
<font size=2> <br>
</font><br>
<font size=2>Any thoughts are welcome.<br>
</font><br>
<font size=2> <br>
</font><br>
<font size=2>Marcus Sheffer – Vice Chair USGBC EA TAG<br>
</font><br>
<font size=2>Energy Opportunities, Inc/a 7group Company<br>
</font><br>
<font size=2>1200 E Camping Area Road, Wellsville, PA 17365<br>
</font><br>
<font size=2>717-292-2636, sheffer@sevengroup.com<br>
</font><br>
<font size=2><a href="http://www.sevengroup.com/" eudora="autourl">
www.sevengroup.com</a><br>
</font><br>
<font size=2> <br>
</font><br>
<font size=2> <br>
</font><br>
<font size=2>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: BLDG-SIM@gard.com
[<a href="mailto:BLDG-SIM@gard.com" eudora="autourl">
mailto:BLDG-SIM@gard.com</a>] On Behalf Of Yi Jiang<br>
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 4:17 PM<br>
To: BLDG-SIM@gard.com<br>
Subject: [BLDG-SIM] LEED energy saving calculations for Industrial
Facility<br>
</font><br>
<font size=2> <br>
</font><br>
<font size=2>We are working on a LEED NC 2.2 project to predict<br>
</font><br>
<font size=2>energy savings with eQuest for a 200,000 sf machinery<br>
</font><br>
<font size=2>workshop facility. <br>
</font><br>
<font size=2> <br>
</font><br>
<font size=2>One question we have is whether to include the process<br>
</font><br>
<font size=2>loads in the workshop. We feel that it makes the most<br>
</font><br>
<font size=2>sense to include the heat generated from the process<br>
</font><br>
<font size=2>equipment as internal cooling load and treated by HVAC<br>
</font><br>
<font size=2>systems. However, the electrical power specifically to<br>
</font><br>
<font size=2>process equipment should not be included. For such a<br>
</font><br>
<font size=2>machinery facility, the electrical power to process<br>
</font><br>
<font size=2>equipment constitutes 50% of total electricity<br>
</font><br>
<font size=2>consumption, and can significantly reduce the total<br>
</font><br>
<font size=2>energy saving prediction by 10%. Has anyone has<br>
</font><br>
<font size=2>experiences with such a industrial facility? Thanks<br>
</font><br>
<font size=2> <br>
</font><br>
<font size=2>--Yi <br>
</font><br>
<font size=2> <br>
</font><br><br>
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<br>
<div>_________________________________________________</div>
<br>
<div>William P. Bahnfleth, PhD, PE, FASHRAE</div>
<div>Professor of Architectural Engineering</div>
<div>Director, Indoor Environment Center</div>
<br>
<div>The Pennsylvania State University </div>
<div>104 Engineering Unit A</div>
<div>University Park, PA 16802 USA</div>
<br>
<div>voice: 814.863.2076 / fax: 814.863.4789 </div>
<div>e-mail: wbahnfleth@psu.edu</div>
<div>
<a href="http://www.arche.psu.edu/faculty/WBahnfleth/" EUDORA=AUTOURL>
www.arche.psu.edu/faculty/WBahnfleth/</a></div>
<div><a href="http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/iec/" EUDORA=AUTOURL>
http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/iec/</a></div>
_________________________________________________</html>
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