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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=500553503-02012007><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>I have a question which might have been proposed to the
Bldg. Sim. in the past but I'm not sure. Regarding underfloor air systems,
since DOE2 assumes a well mixed space and cannot model the
destratification effect and since the supply air temperature for heating
and cooling tends to be much lower/higher than typical conditions, the
throttling range tends to be quite high. There is an exception in ASHRAE 90.1
Appendix G that if you have a high throttling range you can try to argue an
exception to this but I'm not sure if LEED would accept this. This might be
similar to the natural ventilation issue. Would an underfloor air system which
has typically 62 F to 64 F SAT with room thermostat settings of 72 to 75
F fall under this exception for LEED since DOE2 cannot mode the
distratification effect or do most people try to force the throttling range
down to meet LEED/ASHRAE requirements which is what I have done in the
past. I did not see anything in the USGBC Credit Interpretation
Rulings regarding this subject. I have heard the next version of eQuest
should be able to model underfloor air systems and that Energy Plus does but
until then.....</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=500553503-02012007><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=500553503-02012007><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Thank you,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Renée <SPAN
class=SpellE>Azerbegi</SPAN>, CEM, LEED-AP<o:p></o:p></SPAN></STRONG></P>
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<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> bldg-sim@gard.com
[mailto:bldg-sim@gard.com] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Mike Tillou<BR><B>Sent:</B>
Thursday, December 28, 2006 10:56 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
bldg-sim@gard.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [bldg-sim] Modeling buildings with natural
ventilation for Appendix G<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=276444817-28122006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>There
is no specific temperature range called out but Section G3.1.2.2 does limit the
number of unmet heating and cooling hours your simulation can have. The
heating and cooling schedules you establish would be the required high / low
temperatures you would need to meet. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=276444817-28122006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=276444817-28122006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Again
my interpretation of the Exception Calculation methodology is that if I feel the
design I am modeling doesn't need to meet G3.1.2.2 then I need to argue the case
why.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=276444817-28122006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2> </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><!-- Converted from text/rtf format -->
<P><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Swis721 Blk BT" size=2>Michael Tillou,
PE</FONT></SPAN> <BR><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Swis721 Blk BT" size=1>ETC
Group, Inc - Energy Engineering for a Sustainable Future</FONT></SPAN> <BR><SPAN
lang=en-us><FONT face="Swis721 Blk BT" size=1>Ph:413-458-9870</FONT></SPAN> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
bldg-sim@gard.com [mailto:bldg-sim@gard.com] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Jon
McHugh<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 21, 2006 2:44 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
bldg-sim@gard.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [bldg-sim] Modeling buildings with
natural ventilation for Appendix G<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=609024419-21122006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff>Mike,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=609024419-21122006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=609024419-21122006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff>The prescribed range being what? Is there a schedule of
high and low temperatures that are called out in Appendix
G?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=609024419-21122006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=609024419-21122006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff>Thanks,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=609024419-21122006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=609024419-21122006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff>Jon</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Mike Tillou [mailto:miket@etcgrp.com]
<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 21, 2006 11:12 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Jon
McHugh; bldg-sim@gard.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [bldg-sim] Modeling buildings
with natural ventilation for Appendix G<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=329500519-21122006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I
have always gone under the assumption that my results have to meet the
criteria for zone temperatures being within the prescribed
range.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=329500519-21122006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=329500519-21122006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>MMT</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><!-- Converted from text/rtf format -->
<P><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Swis721 Blk BT" size=2>Michael Tillou,
PE</FONT></SPAN> <BR><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Swis721 Blk BT" size=1>ETC
Group, Inc - Energy Engineering for a Sustainable Future</FONT></SPAN>
<BR><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Swis721 Blk BT"
size=1>Ph:413-458-9870</FONT></SPAN> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Jon McHugh
[mailto:Jon.McHugh@h-m-g.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, December 19, 2006
1:25 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Mike Tillou; bldg-sim@gard.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE:
[bldg-sim] Modeling buildings with natural ventilation for Appendix
G<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=187512418-19122006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff>Mike,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=187512418-19122006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=187512418-19122006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff>Does this proposed methodology place limits on the number
of occupied hours above or below a given temperature/RH?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=187512418-19122006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=187512418-19122006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff>Thanks,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=187512418-19122006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=187512418-19122006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff>Jon McHugh</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> bldg-sim@gard.com
[mailto:bldg-sim@gard.com] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Mike Tillou<BR><B>Sent:</B>
Tuesday, December 19, 2006 7:18 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
bldg-sim@gard.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [bldg-sim] Modeling buildings with
natural ventilation for Appendix G<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=479163814-19122006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Ramana,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=479163814-19122006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=479163814-19122006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>The ASHRAE 90.1 ECB sub-committee is working on a methodology for
simulating natural ventilation within the framework of Appendix G but I
don't think its finished yet. In the meantime here is what I would
recommend.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=479163814-19122006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=479163814-19122006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Appendix G / 90.1 ECB allows you to use
an exception calculation method to simulate hybrid systems or
unique efficiency measures to demonstrate above-standard performance.
I think this would certainly apply in your case.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=479163814-19122006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=479163814-19122006></SPAN><SPAN
class=479163814-19122006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Here's what I
have done on projects requiring an exception calculation method.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=479163814-19122006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>1.
Establish your energy cost budget and your design energy case
following the Appendix G guidelines. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=479163814-19122006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>2.
Create a second model using the Design Energy Case as the baseline and make
the necessary modifications to simulate radiant heating / no cooling via
natural ventilation. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=479163814-19122006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>3.
Report the energy savings from your exception calculation as a line item at
the end of your LEED EA-1 summary table (similar to how renewable energy is
reported). </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=479163814-19122006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>4.
Include a seperate summary table for the exception
calculation showing the energy end-use breakdown and how you arrived at
the cost savings. Show both the baseline and proposed energy
use. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=479163814-19122006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>5.
Make sure the savings are reasonable and prudent for the system you are
proposing. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=479163814-19122006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>6.
Document any changes to the model especially changes to schedules that were
necessary to properly simulate your system. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=479163814-19122006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>7.
Make it easy for someone to review your assumptions and the methodology
you used to estimate the savings</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=479163814-19122006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=479163814-19122006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I
hope this helps. Good luck.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=479163814-19122006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=479163814-19122006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Mike</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=479163814-19122006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV><!-- Converted from text/rtf format -->
<P><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Swis721 Blk BT" size=2>Michael Tillou,
PE</FONT></SPAN> <BR><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Swis721 Blk BT" size=1>ETC
Group, Inc - Energy Engineering for a Sustainable Future</FONT></SPAN>
<BR><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Swis721 Blk BT"
size=1>Ph:413-458-9870</FONT></SPAN> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
bldg-sim@gard.com [mailto:bldg-sim@gard.com] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Ramana
Koti<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 18, 2006 4:53 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
bldg-sim@gard.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [bldg-sim] Modeling buildings with
natural ventilation for Appendix G<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>Dear all,<BR><BR>Is
ignoring natural ventilation in both proposed and baseline designs an
accepted/fair way of modeling based on Appendix G (ASHRAE
90.1-2004)?<BR><BR>Part of the proposed design has (radiant heating +
natural ventilation) with no cooling which was modeled as a radiant slab,
no cooling, natural ventilation ignored. <BR><BR>But the Baseline HVAC
system based on Appendix G is System 5: Packaged VAV w/Reheat. (Natural
ventilation can be modeled based on Air Change method or Sherman Grimsrud
method though I do not know how to do it).<BR><BR>I cannot decide how to
make the baseline and proposed comparable with respect to Natural
Ventilation (in a manner acceptable to LEED review), suggestions will be
appreciated.<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR><BR>Ramana Koti, Sustainable Building
Analyst <BR>LEED AP<BR><BR>ELEMENTS | a division of berkebile nelson
immenschuh mcdowell architects<BR>106 W. 14th Street Suite 200<BR>Kansas
City, Missouri 64105<BR><BR>p 816.783.1635 f 816.783.1501<BR>www.bnim.com|
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