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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>This is a good discussion, I am glad others are trying to
find work arounds as the humidity control and central heating aspects are not
straight forward.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I am not fmailiar with the fan energy problems, but I am
familiar with the following:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>1) There is a lower limit on CHW DT across the chiller
which I believe is 6DegF.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>2) The OA-FROM-SYSTEM is the way to go in
EQuest/2.2. TAS, Apache and I suspect other programs allow the heating /
humidity control to be handled more easily and accurtely but fall down on the
waterside.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>3) The OA-FROM-SYSTEM cannot 'see' the zones you are
passing the air to so therefore off-coil temperatures cannot be directly
controlled from the zone unless you replicate a dummy building that mimics your
actual model's latent loads etc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>4) Further to #3 the OA-FROM-SYSTEM cannot see the zone
heating demands thus space heating must be local by baseboards or by a
4-pipe IU/FCU.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>5) Given above I have tended to se up my
OA-FROM-SYSTEM as a SZRH system with the cooling coil off-coil controlling to an
outdoor air reset schedule to dehumidify and the zone heating coils reheating to
maintain a minimum zone supply temperature (nominally 15C). In Australia
we use this configuration as we have warm to hot and humid climates with a small
heating load in comparison to most North American climates. In winter the
central heating coil (zone coil in this case on a SZRH) would heat to
satisfy zone of greatest heating demand and other zones would recool.
Reheat and recool sounds inefficient but when the heating is done with CW heat
recovery and periods of simultaneous heating and cooling are in cooler months
when plant effcieincy is at a maximum, the whole system is actually quite
efficient.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>6) I then iterate on the outdoor air reset
schedule and observe humidity levels in key zones to satisfy myself that I
am getting space dewpoint control.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>7) Ultimately with a chilled beam system that is most
sensitive to space dewpoint control this is still only a good approximation that
is time consuming to ensure it is right.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I mentioned last week that the EQuest/2.2 team could fix
this up (IU system with no OA-FROM-SYSTEM, dewpoint contrl and central heaing /
reheat) if the $ could be found - keep in mind we enjoy freeware. Speaking
with Jeff Hirsch over the years we aren't talking a lot of money but it is too
much for me to justify paying 100%. Anyone feeling generous or like
me, frustrated at the time consuming work arounds, please contat Jeff
and/or myself as this enhancement would extend the application of
EQuest/2.2 dramatically (from my point of view).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Graham Carter</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
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<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=perickson@aeieng.com href="mailto:perickson@aeieng.com">Paul
Erickson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=BLDG-SIM@GARD.COM
href="mailto:BLDG-SIM@GARD.COM">BLDG-SIM@GARD.COM</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=Eric.Yang@smithgroup.com
href="mailto:Eric.Yang@smithgroup.com">Eric.Yang@smithgroup.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 13, 2006 12:23
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [BLDG-SIM] Active Chilled Beam
Model</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
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Eric,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>As Peter stated, an induction unit can have a dedicated system
supply source (for Trace it is OA; for eQUEST/DOE-2 you specify
source...OA or rom a chosen AHU). The same is true with the fan coil
unit. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>For DOE-2.2/eQUEST specifically, there are a few of snags that one
runs into. One, the induction ratio doesn't really matter...play around
and you'll see. Two, DOE-2 doesn't seem to account for the fan energy
used to pull off the CFM that goes to the beams...I'd love for someone to
prove I'm wrong. Three, I've had difficulties with loop temperatures and
delta T for the loops...i.e. DOE-2 didn't seem to like the higher water temps
going to the IU/FCU. I'd like to hear feedback if someone else got
around this.<BR></DIV>
<DIV>Trace had some similar drawbacks...I'll work on recalling them.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Paul</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR>>>> "Peter Simmonds" <peter.simmonds@ibece.net>
9/12/2006 8:48 am >>><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial>Peter Simmonds Ph.D.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial>Associate</FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial
color=gray size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-no-proof: yes">IBE
Consulting Engineers</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial color=gray size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-no-proof: yes">14130
Riverside Drive Suite 201</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-no-proof: yes">Sherman
Oaks, CA 91423<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-no-proof: yes">p:
(818) 377-8220<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-no-proof: yes">f:
(818) 377-8230<BR>m: (818) 219-1284<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-no-proof: yes"><A
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<DIV> </DIV><BR>
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<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Peter Simmonds <BR><B>Sent:</B>
Monday, September 11, 2006 3:47 PM<BR><B>To:</B> 'Eric
Yang'<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [BLDG-SIM] Active Chilled Beam
Model<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=979434422-11092006><FONT face=Arial
color=#ff0000 size=2>OK so you are talking about an active beam and not a
static beam, right. Then you need an outside air supply to be incorprated
into the conditioning system, so I guess the induction unit will suffice,
just check the minmum turndown ratio and check the induction rate to match
the profile of the active beam.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial>Peter Simmonds Ph.D.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial>Associate</FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial
color=gray size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-no-proof: yes">IBE
Consulting Engineers</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial color=gray size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-no-proof: yes">14130
Riverside Drive Suite 201</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-no-proof: yes">Sherman
Oaks, CA 91423<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-no-proof: yes">p:
(818) 377-8220<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-no-proof: yes">f:
(818) 377-8230<BR>m: (818) 219-1284<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT
size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-no-proof: yes"><A
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<DIV> </DIV><BR>
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<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Eric Yang
[mailto:Eric.Yang@smithgroup.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 11,
2006 3:40 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Peter Simmonds<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE:
[BLDG-SIM] Active Chilled Beam Model<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks for your
inputs. How about the air which is induced into the beams?
For example, I supply only 105 CFM per beam, but I will have
around 300 CFM total supply air. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Eric</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
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</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
Peter Simmonds [mailto:peter.simmonds@ibece.net] <BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, September 11, 2006 6:36
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Eric Yang;
BLDG-SIM@GARD.COM<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> RE: [BLDG-SIM] Active
Chilled Beam Model</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=red size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: red; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Very simple. Model
the chilled beam as a fan coil for cooling only and remove the associated
fan power.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Peter Simmonds
Ph.D.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Associate</SPAN></FONT><BR><FONT
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style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">IBE Consulting
Engineers</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
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style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Oaks, CA
91423<BR>p: (818) 377-8220<BR>f: (818)
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><B><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
BLDG-SIM@GARD.COM [mailto:BLDG-SIM@GARD.COM] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Eric Yang<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, September 11, 2006
2:34 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
BLDG-SIM@GARD.COM<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [BLDG-SIM] Active Chilled
Beam Model</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Greetings<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I am seeking for any
suggestions or input on the model of active chilled beam system.
In my previous Trace model, it can not handle it very well
by induction system. I am very curious to get inputs and helps
from other folks. Thanks in
advance.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Eric
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Narrow'">Eric
Yang<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face="Arial Narrow" color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Narrow'">Mechanical
Engineer, LEED.A.P.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face="Arial Narrow" color=navy size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Narrow'">SmithGroup<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></B></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><st1:Street
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style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333399; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Narrow'">1850
K Street, NW, Suite 250</SPAN></FONT></st1:address></st1:Street><FONT
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style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333399; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Narrow'">,
<st1:State
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tabIndex=0 w:st="on">DC</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode
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