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<P> Well, Mike, you are correct, the difference is small. I went ahead and
modeled a two-story 25,000 sf office building in Denver<SPAN
class=114273918-16042004> with 50% window-to-wall ratio and low-e double pane
windows</SPAN>. The effect of framing with individual windows versus one big
window, with the same percentage frame has less than 1% difference in energy
usage and cost. The effect of shading, whether modeled as individual fins
on small <SPAN class=114273918-16042004>w</SPAN>indows or one big fin for
one big window does have about a 2.5% increase in heating usage, however this is
offset by cooling reduction, so the overall difference is less than 1% in energy
cost. This may have a different effect at different climates. <SPAN
class=114273918-16042004>I can email anyone interested the spreadsheet of
results. </SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN class=114273918-16042004></SPAN>Renee</P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Mike Tillou
[mailto:miket@etcgrp.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, April 12, 2004 12:56
PM<BR><B>To:</B> BLDG-SIM@gard.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [BLDG-SIM] Curtain wall
frames and fenestration area<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV id=idOWAReplyText4452 dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>Has anyone <U>actually</U> done a comparison to see what sort of
effect modeling the frame different ways has on the actual loads in the
space. I realize there is no panacea answer but I would be curious to
know what the effect of modeling a single window with enlarged frame area vs
actual window size and frame width is. Is it a 5% difference or a 20% or
.05%. I am curious only because I have always assumed the difference was
small and that there were more important (larger impact) modeling items to
worry about. </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>Please note that I am not trying to discount the importance of
correctly modeling windows but trying to understand the overall impact
different modeling techniques might have on output. </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>Mike Tillou</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>etc Group, Inc. </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> postman@gard.com on behalf
of Fred Porter<BR><B>Sent:</B> Mon 4/12/2004 10:48 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
BLDG-SIM@gard.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [BLDG-SIM] Curtain wall frames and
fenestration area<BR></FONT><BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Also, if you are using either of the detailed glazing models, the way
Steve describes should better account for edge-of-glass effects. Dividing
glazing up into lots of tiny little "panes," as some architects want, has an
extemely delterious effect on the IGU overall U-factor, above and beyond the
effect of the frame itself. If using the SC inputs, it might be instructive to
run Window 5 on some similar configurations, to check the overall U-value with
DOE2's output. (Noting where interior, exterior etc films are/aren't accounted
for.)<BR><BR>If you want a pretty rendering for the client, I recommend a
separate model, for presentation only. And then if trying to do daylighting
calcs......;<BR><BR><A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:stvgates@pacbell.net">stvgates@pacbell.net</A> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">
<STYLE></STYLE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The solution below can work, but does not take
into account the effect of shading due to fins and overhangs. For
those windows, a better approach is to define one of the windows,
together with its fins/overhang, and then use the window MULTIPLIER to
establish the total number of windows on the wall wall. If the
overhang shades a significant portion of the wall, in addition to the
window, then the overhang can be defined as a separate shading
surface.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-ATTACHMENT: scroll; BACKGROUND-IMAGE: none; FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND-REPEAT: repeat; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(228,228,228); font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none"><B>From:</B><A
title=miket@etcgrp.com href="mailto:miket@etcgrp.com">Mike Tillou</A>
</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none"><B>To:</B><A
title=BLDG-SIM@gard.com
href="mailto:BLDG-SIM@gard.com">BLDG-SIM@gard.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none"><B>Sent:</B>
Monday, April 12, 2004 7:44 AM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none"><B>Subject:</B>
[BLDG-SIM] Curtain wall frames and fenestration area</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV id=idOWAReplyText67348 dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Renee,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>The easiest way to do
this is to use a single window on each wall. Calculate the
percentage of window area that is actually frame and then adjust the
frame-width to account for the increase. You may end up with a
window frame width that is 12 inches or bigger (if the wall is large
enough). With a little ingenuity you can write some BDL code that
will automatically calculate the window width, frame width and x position
of the window on the wall so you don't get any cautions or warnings.
. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV id=idSignature46218 dir=ltr>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#0000ff><STRONG>Michael Tillou,
PE</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#0000ff><STRONG>etc Group,
Inc.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#0000ff><STRONG>PO Box
749, </STRONG></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff><STRONG>North Adams, MA
01247</STRONG></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff><STRONG><FONT face="Times New Roman">Ph. (413)
458-9870 Mbl. (413) 652-1087 </FONT><A
href="http://www.etcgrp.com"><FONT
face="Times New Roman">www.etcgrp.com</FONT></A> </STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"> </DIV></DIV></DIV></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><BR>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:postman@gard.com">postman@gard.com</A> on behalf of Azerbegi,
Renee<BR><B>Sent:</B> Mon 4/12/2004 7:44 AM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:BLDG-SIM@gard.com">BLDG-SIM@gard.com</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
[BLDG-SIM] Curtain wall frames and fenestration area<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><FONT size=2>Greetings,<BR><BR>I am modeling a high-rise building in
eQuest which has a significant amount of fenestration as curtain wall.
This curtain wall, like many curtain walls, has metal frames around many
small panes of glass that make up the total curtain wall. My question is,
how do you treat the frames and the fenestration area? If I model
each small pane of glass and add the exact frame, this would probably
overwhelm DOE2 due to the huge number of small windows. If I model
the glass as one big window, then is it correct to just add the total
width of the frame to each of these large windows? Also, some of these
curtain wall panes have fins to complicate things, so if I do one big
glass pane, then adding the fins would make huge fins on either side of
the glass. If you have dealt with modeling curtain walls, as probably many
of you have, please let me know how you have dealt with these
issues.<BR><BR>Thank you,<BR><BR>Renee<BR><BR>Renee Azerbegi<BR>RMH
Group<BR>303-239-0909x641<BR><BR><BR>This email was scanned by SC E-mail
Anti-Virus Agent at 7:44:05 AM 4/12/2004 the RMH Group,
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