<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<html>
<head>
</head>
<body>
<DIV id=idOWAReplyText4452 dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>Has anyone <U>actually</U> done a comparison to see what sort of
effect modeling the frame different ways has on the actual loads in the
space. I realize there is no panacea answer but I would be curious to know
what the effect of modeling a single window with enlarged frame area vs actual
window size and frame width is. Is it a 5% difference or a 20% or
.05%. I am curious only because I have always assumed the difference was
small and that there were more important (larger impact) modeling items to worry
about. </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>Please note that I am not trying to discount the importance of
correctly modeling windows but trying to understand the overall impact
different modeling techniques might have on output. </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>Mike Tillou</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>etc Group, Inc. </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> postman@gard.com on behalf of
Fred Porter<BR><B>Sent:</B> Mon 4/12/2004 10:48 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
BLDG-SIM@gard.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [BLDG-SIM] Curtain wall frames and
fenestration area<BR></FONT><BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Also, if you are using either of the detailed glazing models, the way Steve
describes should better account for edge-of-glass effects. Dividing glazing up
into lots of tiny little "panes," as some architects want, has an extemely
delterious effect on the IGU overall U-factor, above and beyond the effect of
the frame itself. If using the SC inputs, it might be instructive to run Window
5 on some similar configurations, to check the overall U-value with DOE2's
output. (Noting where interior, exterior etc films are/aren't accounted
for.)<BR><BR>If you want a pretty rendering for the client, I recommend a
separate model, for presentation only. And then if trying to do daylighting
calcs......;<BR><BR><A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:stvgates@pacbell.net">stvgates@pacbell.net</A> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">
<STYLE></STYLE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The solution below can work, but does not take
into account the effect of shading due to fins and overhangs. For those
windows, a better approach is to define one of the windows, together with
its fins/overhang, and then use the window MULTIPLIER to establish the total
number of windows on the wall wall. If the overhang shades a significant
portion of the wall, in addition to the window, then the overhang can be
defined as a separate shading surface.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-ATTACHMENT: scroll; BACKGROUND-IMAGE: none; FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND-REPEAT: repeat; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(228,228,228); font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none"><B>From:</B><A
title=miket@etcgrp.com href="mailto:miket@etcgrp.com">Mike Tillou</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none"><B>To:</B><A
title=BLDG-SIM@gard.com
href="mailto:BLDG-SIM@gard.com">BLDG-SIM@gard.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none"><B>Sent:</B>
Monday, April 12, 2004 7:44 AM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none"><B>Subject:</B>
[BLDG-SIM] Curtain wall frames and fenestration area</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV id=idOWAReplyText67348 dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Renee,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>The easiest way to do
this is to use a single window on each wall. Calculate the percentage
of window area that is actually frame and then adjust the frame-width to
account for the increase. You may end up with a window frame width
that is 12 inches or bigger (if the wall is large enough). With
a little ingenuity you can write some BDL code that will automatically
calculate the window width, frame width and x position of the window on the
wall so you don't get any cautions or warnings. . </FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV id=idSignature46218 dir=ltr>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#0000ff><STRONG>Michael Tillou,
PE</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#0000ff><STRONG>etc Group,
Inc.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#0000ff><STRONG>PO Box
749, </STRONG></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff><STRONG>North Adams, MA
01247</STRONG></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff><STRONG><FONT face="Times New Roman">Ph. (413)
458-9870 Mbl. (413) 652-1087 </FONT><A
href="http://www.etcgrp.com"><FONT
face="Times New Roman">www.etcgrp.com</FONT></A> </STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"> </DIV></DIV></DIV></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><BR>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:postman@gard.com">postman@gard.com</A> on behalf of Azerbegi,
Renee<BR><B>Sent:</B> Mon 4/12/2004 7:44 AM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:BLDG-SIM@gard.com">BLDG-SIM@gard.com</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
[BLDG-SIM] Curtain wall frames and fenestration area<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><FONT size=2>Greetings,<BR><BR>I am modeling a high-rise building in
eQuest which has a significant amount of fenestration as curtain wall. This
curtain wall, like many curtain walls, has metal frames around many small
panes of glass that make up the total curtain wall. My question is, how do
you treat the frames and the fenestration area? If I model each small
pane of glass and add the exact frame, this would probably overwhelm DOE2
due to the huge number of small windows. If I model the glass as one
big window, then is it correct to just add the total width of the frame to
each of these large windows? Also, some of these curtain wall panes have
fins to complicate things, so if I do one big glass pane, then adding the
fins would make huge fins on either side of the glass. If you have dealt
with modeling curtain walls, as probably many of you have, please let me
know how you have dealt with these issues.<BR><BR>Thank
you,<BR><BR>Renee<BR><BR>Renee Azerbegi<BR>RMH
Group<BR>303-239-0909x641<BR><BR><BR>This email was scanned by SC E-mail
Anti-Virus Agent at 7:44:05 AM 4/12/2004 the RMH Group,
Inc.<BR><BR><BR>----><BR>This email and any files transmitted with it are
confidential and intended solely for the use<BR>of the individual or entity
to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in<BR>error
please immediately notify the RMH Group Inc. by telephone at (303) 239-0909
or<BR>send a reply to <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:Services@RMHgroup.com">Services@RMHgroup.com</A> with "Return
to sender" in the subject line.<BR><----<BR><BR>==================<BR>You
received this e-mail because you are subscribed<BR>to the <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:BLDG-SIM@GARD.COM">BLDG-SIM@GARD.COM</A> mailing list. To
unsubscribe<BR>from this mailing list send a blank message to<BR><A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@GARD.COM">BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@GARD.COM</A><BR><BR></FONT></P></DIV><PRE>==================<BR>You received this e-mail because you are subscribed <BR>to the <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:BLDG-SIM@GARD.COM">BLDG-SIM@GARD.COM</A> mailing list. To unsubscribe <BR>from this mailing list send a blank message to <BR><A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@GARD.COM">BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@GARD.COM</A><BR></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE><BR>======================================================<BR>You received this e-mail because you are subscribed <BR>to the <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:BLDG-SIM@GARD.COM">BLDG-SIM@GARD.COM</A> mailing list. To unsubscribe <BR>from this mailing list send a blank message to <BR><A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@GARD.COM">BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@GARD.COM</A><BR></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><PRE class=moz-signature cols="$mailwrapcol">--
Fred W. Porter
Senior Engineer
Architectural Energy Corp.
2540 Frontier Ave. Suite 201
Boulder CO 80301
email: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:fporter@archenergy.com">fporter@archenergy.com</A>
fax: 303-444-4304
office: 303-444-4149 x225
mobile: 303-748-4536
</PRE><BR></DIV>
<PRE>
===========================
You received this e-mail because you are subscribed
to the BLDG-SIM@GARD.COM mailing list. To unsubscribe
from this mailing list send a blank message to
BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@GARD.COM
</PRE></body>
</html>
<PRE>
======================================================
You received this e-mail because you are subscribed
to the BLDG-SIM@GARD.COM mailing list. To unsubscribe
from this mailing list send a blank message to
BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@GARD.COM
</PRE>