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<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle18><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Regarding
the VFD control, what I suggested is not new.<span style="mso-spacerun:
yes"> </span>You let the VFD be the application specific controller (ASC,
by some manufacturers terminology).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</span>ABB, Graham, and others do this regularly.<span style="mso-spacerun:
yes"> </span>The EMCS is hooked up to the VFD “controller,” The VFD works
to maintain its programmed set point, which is decided by the EMCS.<span
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>The VFD will continuously communicate
with the DP sensor, while routinely communicate with the EMCS main system.<span
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>This arrangement is beneficial to the
overall EMCS system in that it minimizes traffic on the cable, and frees up the
main system from having to send speed control signals to the VFD on a continuous
basis as well as continuously monitor the DP sensor.<span style="mso-spacerun:
yes"> </span>It is very similar to an ASC on a VAV box.<span
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>The main system does not monitor, continuously
the temperature in each zone and then command the damper and valve to adjust
accordingly; the ASC monitors the zone temperature continuously, adjusts
accordingly, and then reports to the main EMCS system to inform it as to the
current situation as well as receive new instructions.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle18><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle18><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I did not
mean to imply that the VFD was a controller unto itself, rather an integral
part of an EMCS system, however I am making the VFD work more for its
money.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>If you look more into this,
and ask VFD manufactures, you will find this is becoming more the standard
practice.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Interestingly though,
mechanical designers do not show this arrangement, or are not aware that what
they show is not what they are receiving.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</span>What they are actually getting is a VFD that functions the way they
asked, but is cheaper to install and works better.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle18><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoAutoSig><!--[if supportFields]><span class=EmailStyle18><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><span style='mso-element:field-begin'></span><span
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>AUTOTEXTLIST \s "E-mail
Signature" <span style='mso-element:field-separator'></span></span></font></span><![endif]--><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'>Eric Kirchhoff, PE</span></font><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoAutoSig><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Project Engineer</span></font><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoAutoSig><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><!--[if supportFields]><span class=EmailStyle18><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><span style='mso-element:field-end'></span></span></font></span><![endif]--><span
class=EmailStyle18><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> Tom Anderson
[mailto:hvac@cx-assoc.com]<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, November 04, 2002
8:16 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> EKirchhoff@semprasolutions.com<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> bldg-sim@gard.com<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [bldg-sim] VAV
control of underfloor air</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>RE: "</span></font><font
size=2 color=black><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Additionally, to
keep costs down, I would let the VFD control the situation, not the EMCS.
Just have the VFD update the EMCS, and allow the EMCS to reset the differential
pressure sensor."</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'>
</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>I do not agree with this concept.
Using stand alone VFD control loses the integrated features of a building DDC
system.</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'> <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>-How does one adjust and tune the VFD static pressure control?</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'> <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>-How does one deal with PID windup problems?</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'> <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>-When the system is commissioned, establishing the correct static
pressure control setpoint will be VERY difficult without DDC access to VAV box
damper positions.</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>The cost to control a VFD from the
building DDC system will actually be less when the VFD is connected to the DDC
system using modBUD or LON network... you only run one data cable from DDC
controller to the VFD, and you pick up all 60 or so VFD data points, some of
which are quite useful for diagnostics and monitoring energy use.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'> <br>
</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Thomas E.
Anderson</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>President</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Cx
Associates, Ltd.</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Building
Commissioning Specialists</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><i><font size=2 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black;font-style:
italic'><a href="http://www.cx-assoc.com">http://www.cx-assoc.com</a></span></font></i><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><i><font size=2 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black;font-style:
italic'>933 Road 101</span></font></i><font color=black><span style='color:
black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><i><font size=2 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black;font-style:
italic'>Jeffersonville, Vermont 05464 USA</span></font></i><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><i><font size=2 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black;font-style:
italic'>hvac@cx-assoc.com</span></font></i><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><i><font size=2 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black;font-style:
italic'>Tel: 802-644-5616 Fax: 802-644-6797</span></font></i><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>"Kirchhoff, Eric" wrote: </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-right:.5in;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Although I
have always been interested in designing such a system I have yet to do
so. However, that doesn't seem to stop me from adding in some anecdotal
information from friends who have designed such systems. First off (not
from friends, this is my own observation), a VFD for an air handler tends to be
nearly the same cost as a starter, except for the additional control point-that
being the differential pressure sensor. Additionally, to keep costs down,
I would let the VFD control the situation, not the EMCS. Just have the
VFD update the EMCS, and allow the EMCS to reset the differential pressure
sensor. Go ahead and monitor all the points you want, and at least do
start / stop, status, and DP sensor reset. Like Robert says, the VFD is a
cost wise investment, even if you end up later on setting it up to be a constant
speed system, the cost risk is low.</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-right:.5in;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Now I would
like some additional information. The IRR of 30% to 50%; is that just for
the mechanical investment or everything? Since this type of system uses a
raised floor system, all the utilities end up running under the floor.
Code will dictate the use of plenum rated cable (even when run inside conduit),
the floor system itself tends to be proprietary-or at best limited in number of
suppliers--hence supply and demand comes into play driving the cost of the floor
up and that is beyond the fact that it is already more expensive since it needs
to be structurally capable of carrying the loads (including areas for very
large filing systems), there are a limited number of suppliers of underfloor
vav systems (and the quality varies), as a positive there is a greatly reduced
amount of sheet metal used for ductwork, there usually is not a realistic
coordination between cubical / office layout and diffuser placement (in large
jobs, the eventual leasee is unknown hence their layout needs are unknown)
causing problems by a maintenance staff that is unfamiliar with the system
(despite training), and another maintenance problem are users who do not
understand nor properly utilize the system hence they will block the diffusers (more
often then the overhead type). Plumbing may also be run in the floor
space as well as other utilities causing a need for additional wall furrings
then may be in a more traditional layout. Was there any account of these items
in the IRR, or was it a theoretical value based only on the mechanical
components?</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-right:.5in;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>I do not mean
to discourage anyone from using this system, I actually am very interested and
excited to implement this type of system, and believe (instinctually) that it
is an energy efficient alternative to the traditional diffusion method of
airside systems. The points listed above are things you should be aware
of, and are questions to ask so as to minimize their impact.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-right:.5in;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>As Rob says
Good Luck, and have some fun!</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-right:.5in;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Eric
Kirchhoff, PE</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-right:.5in;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'> <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>From: Robert Lord [<a href="mailto:rgl.lsbris@lincolne.com.au">mailto:rgl.lsbris@lincolne.com.au</a>]</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'> <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 2:55 PM</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'> <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>To: bldg-sim@gard.com</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'> <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>Subject: [bldg-sim] VAV control of underfloor air</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-right:.5in;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>A typical
design is to zone the floor compartment according to aspect and allow the
individuals to adjust the swirls.</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'> <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>There are only a handful of large VAVs and the fan speed is varied
according to duct static pressure (not plenum pressure).</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-right:.5in;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>In most
instances, I have found that the internal rate of return is between 30% &
50% and hence is a good investment. I am sure VSD pricing and energy pricing
varies but a point to note is that the RH control is improved.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-right:.5in;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Good luck!</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-right:.5in;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Rob Lord</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-right:.5in;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'> <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>From: Molinini, Louis [<a href="mailto:lmolinini@syska.com">mailto:lmolinini@syska.com</a>]</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'> <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>Sent: Saturday, 2 November 2002 8:37 AM</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'> <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>To: bldg-sim@gard.com</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'> <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>Subject: [bldg-sim] VAV control of underfloor air</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-right:.5in;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Do any of you
out there have any experience designing an underfloor air</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'> <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>system with VAV control. The particular system I am looking
at is a plenum</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'> <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>based system with manually adjustable swirl diffusers
(Titus/Krantz). I am</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'> <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>curious if it ends up operating like a constant volume system or
is it worth</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'> <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>the expense of installing the freq drive and the Static pressure
sensor or</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'> <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>differential pressure sensor. Any help is greatly
appreciated.</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'> <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>Thanks,</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'> <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>Louis</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'> </span></font><font
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