[Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 90.1-2013 Appendix G - Baseline Fuel Source mapping

Ramya S ramyashivkumar at gmail.com
Thu Nov 8 09:40:03 PST 2018


Madhav/ David,

I am thinking aloud here -
Climate zones 1-3a are not expected to have very low winter temperatures
and most of the heating requirement can be met with a heatpump with some
supplemental electric heat. While in Climate zones 4-8, we might need a
backup heating source.

Therefore, I understand why ASHRAE 90.1 would change the baselines based on
climate zones, in order to push the boundaries, as far as energy is
concerned. I still think a GSHP or a VRF would be competitive when you
compare their energy consumption to the 90.1 fossil fuel Baseline for
climate zone 4-8. However, if you consider only energy cost, it may be
harder to justify GSHP or VRF to your clients depending on the the cost of
natural gas in your area. Does an ASHRAE baseline system really dictate the
choice of the HVAC system or the fuel type in the proposed building?

Is the concern more to do with meeting energy cost saving targets ?

I would be interested to hear more thoughts on this topic.

Regards
Ramya Shivkumar

>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: David Eldridge <DEldridge at grummanbutkus.com>
> To: "bldg-sim at onebuilding.org" <bldg-sim at onebuilding.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 18:26:38 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 90.1-2013 Appendix G - Baseline Fuel Source
> Mapping
>
> Not sure if I missed a response to this or not…sorry this got lost in my
> draft folder for a few days.
>
>
>
> What you’ve stated as the problem is exactly why the standard takes the
> other approach – if the baseline system costs less to operate (and may also
> have lower source energy) then why shouldn’t it be the baseline system?
>
>
>
> The standard is looking to establish the minimum requirements, which
> shouldn’t be “Best Practice” necessarily but reflect a constantly advancing
> minimum threshold.
>
>
>
> Choosing to use a system that’s less cost efficient is certainly allowable
> and, but requires making other improvements in the building to offset what
> is traded off by using the electric resistance heating system.
>
>
>
> Note that while the requirements of the standard do change based on
> climate, it isn’t based on geography directly, I have understood in the
> past that the approach is for national average utility rates to set the
> requirements. I can think of several reasons why NYSERDA specifically would
> take a different approach, but in general for country-wide adoption I would
> expect gas heat to be the reasonable baseline in climate zones that need
> more heating. Is it debatable for zones 3b and 3c, perhaps. I’m pretty
> comfortable with fossil fuel baseline in CZ 4-8.
>
>
>
> Separate topic: you are seeing GSHP and VRF systems use (much) more energy
> cost than the baselines?
>
>
>
> David
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *David S. Eldridge, Jr.**, P**.**E**.**, LEED AP BD+C, BEMP, BEAP, HBDP*
>
> Associate
>
>
>
> Direct: (847) 316-9224 | Mobile: (773) 490-5038
>
>
>
> *Grumman/Butkus Associates* | 820 Davis Street, Suite 300 | Evanston, IL
> 60201
>
> Energy Efficiency Consultants and Sustainable Design Engineers
>
>
>
> grummanbutkus.com | Blog <http://grummanbutkus.com/blog> | Facebook
> <https://www.facebook.com/pages/GrummanButkus-Associates/1385285015032526>
> | Twitter <https://twitter.com/grummanbutkus>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Madhav Munshi via Bldg-sim
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 01, 2018 4:08 PM
> *To:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 90.1-2013 Appendix G - Baseline Fuel Source
> Mapping
>
>
>
> Hello Everyone,
>
>
>
> Does anyone know why the AHSRAE 90.1-2013 Appendix G Table G3.1.1-3
> requires a Baseline HVAC system that is fossil fuel based for climate zones
> 3b,3c and 4-8? If my Proposed Design has an electric GSHP or VRF system,
> there is very little chance that the energy cost of this Proposed Design is
> going to be lower than a Baseline with a gas furnace/ boiler. Why does it
> matter for ASHRAE where the building is located and type of heating system
> selected for a project?
>
>
>
> For folks in the New York, NYSERDA has amended this map to avoid this fuel
> switch which makes total sense.
>
>
>
> [image: cid:image006.jpg at 01D471FF.EBC60790]
>
>
>
> Thank you
>
>
>
> Madhav
>
>
>
> *MADHAV MUNSHI *| LEED AP BD+C | BEMP
>
> Associate – Senior Energy Analyst
>
> mmunshi at kohlerronan.com
>
>
>
> *KOHLER RONAN *| Consulting Engineers
>
> 171 Madison Avenue, New York, NY 10016
>
> 212.695.2422 F 212.695.2423
>
>
>
> 93 Lake Avenue, Danbury, CT 06810
>
> 203.778.1017 F 203.778.1018
>
>
>
> [image: cid:image006.jpg at 01D4385F.038E8F30] <http://kohlerronan.com/>[image:
> cid:image007.png at 01D4385F.038E8F30]
> <https://www.facebook.com/Kohler-Ronan-LLC-Consulting-Engineers-146070618769600/>
>  [image: cid:image008.png at 01D4385F.038E8F30]
> <https://twitter.com/KohlerRonan> [image:
> cid:image009.png at 01D4385F.038E8F30]
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/1672806?trk=hp-feed-company-name> [image:
> cid:image010.png at 01D4385F.038E8F30]
> <https://www.instagram.com/kohler_ronan/>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bldg-sim mailing list
> Bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org/attachments/20181108/a1fca37a/attachment.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image005.png
Type: image/png
Size: 1554 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org/attachments/20181108/a1fca37a/attachment.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image003.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 1903 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org/attachments/20181108/a1fca37a/attachment.jpg>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image006.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 99181 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org/attachments/20181108/a1fca37a/attachment-0001.jpg>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image007.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 883 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org/attachments/20181108/a1fca37a/attachment-0002.jpg>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image008.png
Type: image/png
Size: 944 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org/attachments/20181108/a1fca37a/attachment-0001.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image009.png
Type: image/png
Size: 1045 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org/attachments/20181108/a1fca37a/attachment-0002.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image010.png
Type: image/png
Size: 1011 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org/attachments/20181108/a1fca37a/attachment-0003.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image011.png
Type: image/png
Size: 2021 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org/attachments/20181108/a1fca37a/attachment-0004.png>


More information about the Bldg-sim mailing list