[Bldg-sim] Request for technical guidness
Nicholas Caton via Bldg-sim
bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Mon Mar 20 08:22:38 PDT 2017
Any time I run into heated pools I end up doing something “on the side” of my main energy model.
I can’t help with the Designbuilder-specific steps, but I outlined the process I followed for interior heated pool loads analysis with a contribution to an [equest-users] thread/discussion last year. Therein I speculated on what extra steps I might take for an exterior roof heated pool. I’ve copied that thread/text below – you might find it instructive to read from the bottom-up.
Your procedure would need to diverge at (my) bullet #5 to figure out how to carry your hourly analysis back into a Designbuilder model, if you deem that necessary.
You might also try reaching out to Rehana Jiffrey (CC’ed here) to see how that particular project turned out. You might get some additional advice/thoughts from someone who has recently tread this path!
Hope that’s helpful!
~Nick
[cid:image002.png at 01D2A162.1C774090]
Nick Caton, P.E., BEMP
Senior Energy Engineer
Regional Energy Engineering Manager
Energy and Sustainability Services
Schneider Electric
D 913.564.6361
M 785.410.3317
F 913.564.6380
E nicholas.caton at schneider-electric.com<mailto:nicholas.caton at schneider-electric.com>
15200 Santa Fe Trail Drive
Suite 204
Lenexa, KS 66219
United States
[cid:image003.png at 01D2A162.1C774090]
From: Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Chris Jones via Bldg-sim
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 7:47 AM
To: elbahouch_ziat salah eddine <eng.sziat at gmail.com>
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Request for technical guidness
I am not up to speed on modeling outdoor swimming pools. Forwarded to the bldg-sim group.
[Title: RWDI - Description: RWDI logo]<http://www.rwdi.com/assets/logos/RWDI-logo.gif>
Christopher Jones, P.Eng. | Senior Energy Analyst
RWDI
901 King Street West, Suite 400, Toronto, ON M5V 3H5 Canada
Tel: (519) 823-1311 ext 2052
rwdi.com<http://www.rwdi.com/>
From: elbahouch_ziat salah eddine [mailto:eng.sziat at gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2017 8:19 AM
To: eng.sziat at gmail.com<mailto:eng.sziat at gmail.com>
Subject: Request for technical guidness
Hello,
My name is Salah Eddine, I am engineer specialized in green building and sustainability working on LEED and energy modeling in Morocco,
I am working now on the energy modeling of a complex architecture, ( swimming pool + vegetated roof...) under Designbuilder
I would like to ask you about the way how to export a 3D in a GBXML and how to model the thermal load and the water heating system of this swimming pool,
I would be grateful if you could provide me with some useful tips and guidance.
sincerely yours
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From: Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of via Equest-users
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2016 5:06 PM
To: rehana at takasolutions.com; jppatil at gmail.com
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Outdoor swimming pool and heater
To “roll your own” savings for pool covers:
1. First calculate heating loads sans pool cover measures.
a. I do not do pools every day, but have also adapted the 2004 Shah method in lieu of ASHRAE Applications approach a few times now (discussed in the link shared previously by Elizabeth). Note both models are intended for indoor pool applications, so “correctly” adapted/applied to exterior conditions you might get odd results – keep a sharp eye out!
b. An outdoor heated pool would be a slightly trickier problem to accurately calculate, as you are now dealing with variables sourceable from your weather file to include air velocity (hourly windspeed – you mentioned rooftop so this might require further processing considering elevation) and a broader range of air conditions (DB temperature + RH), from which you could derive hourly dewpoint<https://iridl.ldeo.columbia.edu/dochelp/QA/Basic/dewpoint.html> --> saturation pressure for those air conditions<http://www.srh.noaa.gov/images/epz/wxcalc/vaporPressure.pdf>, and then also the saturation pressure at the pool surface<http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/water-vapor-saturation-pressure-air-d_689.html>. You may also want to consider conductive losses to the environment/ground below the pool depending on the circumstances. I haven’t done it, but it seems like there may be a workable path here (eyeing 2015 ASHRAE Applications equation #1, specifically).
c. I recommend at minimum reading up on some of the already cited literature, but here’s an open-source/public tool building upon the Shah approach to if you need to get a fast approximation – be mindful again this is without further edits intended for indoor applications: http://www.energyideas.org/documents/spreadsheets/IndoorPoolCalc.xls
2. Take a moment to look hard at the pool cover system(s) under consideration. Decide for yourself by what factor that cover system, when deployed, will reduce evaporation/convection losses (a lot, typically), and radiation losses as well if an insulated variety (I’d estimate this leveraging the hourly weather data + pool temperature profile + cover R-value --> UAdT).
3. Determine a likely profile for cover system deployment – consider whether the system is automated or human-deployed when evaluating your results… if you are ultimately into “guessing at human behavior” territory here, recognize you shouldn’t spend too much time worrying about the finer nuances for this estimation and should consider presenting your savings as more of a “range.”
4. With that information at-hand, calculate hourly heating reductions from your “sans cover” calculations.
5. To spoon feed back into eQuest:
a. Take your before/after hourly heating loads columns,
b. Normalize each to a maximum hourly load (loop process load input for eQuest),
c. Punch them into EMIT to generate annual normalized load profile INP files you can import,
d. Assign those schedules & maximum hourly load to the appropriate eQuest heating loop
Note if this is already a large model, be mindful EMIT’s 8760 hour fractional schedules can be quite heavy to deal with in multiples – use that tool judiciously and simplify to averaged daily/weekly/monthly load profiles if it doesn’t make a huge difference ;).
~Nick
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nick Caton, P.E.
Senior Energy Engineer
Energy and Sustainability Services
North America Operations
Schneider Electric
D 913.564.6361
M 785.410.3317
E nicholas.caton at schneider-electric.com<mailto:nicholas.caton at schneider-electric.com>
F 913.564.6380
15200 Santa Fe Trail Drive
Suite 204
Lenexa, KS 66219
United States
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From: Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Rehana Jiffrey
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2016 6:58 AM
To: Jayant Patil
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Outdoor swimming pool and heater
Thanks all. Ideas were helpful.
Now trying to figure out how much energy energy can be saved if a pool cover is installed. It is possible to model this in equest?.
Rehana.
On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 8:18 PM, Jayant Patil <jppatil at gmail.com<mailto:jppatil at gmail.com>> wrote:
I use the methodology described in the below link. It is pretty much close to the ASHARE method and EPA's energy star performance rating technical document.
http://www.rlmartin.com/rspec/whatis/studies_outdoor_inactive.htm
Jay
On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 9:14 AM, Elizabeth Gillmor <elizabeth at energetics-eng.com<mailto:elizabeth at energetics-eng.com>> wrote:
I use bin calcs for this, though I am interested to hear if others have a better way. Total load = losses from evaporation + radiation + convection. Use 8760 data from your weather file to get OA DB, humidity, solar radiation, wind speed etc. Useful paper with equations here:
http://www.mmshah.org/publications/ASHRAE%202014%20Evaporation%20paper.pdf
From my bin calcs I get a total annual load in Mbtu/year, then convert that to Mbtu/hr for the days that the pool is open (which averages the load across its operating period), and model that as a process load on a boiler loop with an on/off schedule ("on" during the open season). It's a relatively OK estimate for a fuel rate that doesn't have a demand charge, but might not be the best way for your electric pool heater if you have a demand charge on your rate.
Elizabeth Gillmor PE, BEMP, LC, LEED AP
e n e r g e t i c s consulting engineers, llc
energetics-eng.com<http://energetics-eng.com> | 303.619.0091<tel:303.619.0091>
On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 9:42 AM, Christian Kaltreider <ckaltreider at sudassociates.com<mailto:ckaltreider at sudassociates.com>> wrote:
Rehana,
Estimating the energy consumption of a pool heater can be very tricky. The dominant mode of heat loss is generally evaporation. Some major influences include activity level of people using the pool (splashing/stirring increases evaporation), wind speeds, and the use of a pool cover. The US DOE has some material on the subject: http://energy.gov/energysaver/gas-swimming-pool-heaters There is a table on this page which I have used to back calculate and extrapolate heating requirements for a specific project as a sanity check.
Also, ASHRAE HVAC Applications 2015 addresses pool heat loss starting on page 5.6. The discussion is helpful and provides sound calculation methods, but they are more easily applied to indoor pools than outdoor pools.
That’s all I have at the moment; hopefully you can find some additional resources.
Good luck,
Christian
From: Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of Sunayana Jain
Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 8:23 AM
To: Rehana Jiffrey; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Outdoor swimming pool and heater
Rehana,
You can model pool heater load on electric meter (see image below) with winter months schedule:
[cid:image005.jpg at 01D2A163.9BDE3130]
Thanks,
Sunayana Jain CEM, LEED AP BD+C
From: Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of Rehana Jiffrey
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2016 11:21 AM
To: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: [Equest-users] Outdoor swimming pool and heater
Dear All,
I'm trying to model an outdoor swimming pool located at the roof top of a residential building. Pool heater (45Kw) operates from December to March (4 months).
I was wondering if anyone could help me how to model this scenario, and where to input these consumption values.
FYI, this is my first time modeling an outdoor pool and pool heater.
Thank you,
Rehana.
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