[Bldg-sim] 90.1-2010 ECB and PRM questions

Jim Dirkes via Bldg-sim bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Fri Jul 14 13:50:10 PDT 2017


Thanks for all the input - I'm getting smarter as a result.
Nick, as usual, you're amazing.

On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 4:26 PM, Nicholas Caton via Bldg-sim <
bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org> wrote:

> I’m going to jump on to the pile to only add a little more to the “spirit
> of the law” discussion.  What follows is primarily my opinion and I’m not
> suggesting any of this is the letter of the law.
>
>
> Jim’s response pretty succinctly summarizes my position on the matter, but
> I’ll take one exception (and I concede this is semantic):
>
>
>
> I love the word “rigorous.”  It’s a juicy adjective bomb well-suited to
> drop into any documentation/reporting of my analysis efforts, but it can
> mean a lot of things to different people (and I acknowledge that).  With
> that setup, to me a “*rigorous*” baseline case model pushes towards
> *reality*, not in whatever arbitrary direction hinders/helps a
> performance rating.  Rightly stated by others before me, environmental
> shading and reflective impacts on solar loads can help and/or hinder a
> building’s actual utility bills through the course of a full set of
> seasons.  Deliberately excluding those effects without extra justification
> simply doesn’t ring “rigorous” to me.
>
>
>
> It’s fair to note (and I’ve pushed this counter-argument as well):  90.1
> Appendix G doesn’t pretend to be “rigorous” in the sense of matching
> baselines to actual bills, and to that end I don’t expect a quality LEED
> model or compliance model to maintain any specific degree of accuracy to
> reality.  I’m not passing any judgement on that front.
>
>
>
> But for the above reason, I’m left dissatisfied with the sorts of
> interpretation that fall back on “that building may not always be there”
> because *it is actually there* and will affect your actual performance
> (see also discussions on interpreting compliance language for how to handle
> buildings sharing an envelope wall).  In summary, if the modeler is aware
> of something outside the envelope imparting a substantial impact on the
> building energy simulation, there’s only one answer as to whether it
> *should* be included from a perspective of “rigor.”
>
>
>
> The citation below sets an objective threshold for “substantial” via
> height/width/distance proportions.  I think it’s a step in the right
> direction to the extent the authors may be hoping to push 90.1 baselines in
> the direction of “reality,” but no succinct  passage of that nature will
> substitute for a modeler becoming spatially aware of the site to determine
> what ought need to be considered for inclusion in the simulation.
>
>
>
> Something I try to impart on others learning to do site walks for energy
> simulations is to not just look over one shoulder during your perimeter
> walkaround:  Observe the facades, but also what’s going on around the
> building.  Take note of site grading that blocks many hours of direct
> sunlight, large/substantive tree shading, bodies of water in addition to
> man-made structures imparting shading or reflected solar loads.
>
>
>
> Sorry if this contribution is a little far in the weeds – I reckon the
> actual question as pertains to interpretation is pretty well nailed to the
> wall.
>
>
>
> ~Nick
>
>
>
> *Nick Caton, P.E., BEMP*
>
>   Senior Energy Engineer
>   Regional Energy Engineering Manager
>
>   Energy and Sustainability Services
>   Schneider Electric
>
> D  913.564.6361 <(913)%20564-6361>
> M  785.410.3317 <(785)%20410-3317>
> F  913.564.6380 <(913)%20564-6380>
> E  nicholas.caton at schneider-electric.com
>
> 15200 Santa Fe Trail Drive
> Suite 204
> Lenexa, KS 66219
> United States
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Rosenberg, Michael I via Bldg-sim
> *Sent:* Friday, July 14, 2017 11:29 AM
> *To:* David Eldridge <DEldridge at grummanbutkus.com>;
> bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] 90.1-2010 ECB and PRM questions
>
>
>
> Appendix G-2010  is quite clear on when shading from adjacent buildings
> should be modeled. From Table G3.1-14:
>
>
>
> *“All elements whose effective height is greater than their distance from
> a proposed building and whose width*
>
> *facing the proposed building is greater than one-third that of the
> proposed building shall be accounted for in the analysis.”*
>
>
>
> The baseline is noted as being “same as proposed”.
>
>
>
> Michael Rosenberg
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
> <bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] *On Behalf Of *David Eldridge
> via Bldg-sim
> *Sent:* Friday, July 14, 2017 8:54 AM
> *To:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] 90.1-2010 ECB and PRM questions
>
>
>
> I had always understood that inclusion of shading that was under someone
> else’s control might not be required mainly due to the fact that the
> proposed building doesn’t know for sure (I think we often have a pretty
> good idea!) if that structure would remain in place or for what duration of
> time, whether detrimental or constructive.
>
>
>
> That said, the requirement for PRM would be different than if the modeler
> thought the effect would be large enough that the client should know about
> it regardless of documenting performance in the official way, then include
> it.
>
>
>
> I’m interested in the inverse situation as well – this has come up on
> energy audits more than modeling projects, but sometimes the neighbor is
> highly reflective and might actually cause more load from reflected
> sunlight in the opposite position instead of less solar energy via shading
> from the blocking position.
>
>
>
> David
>
>
>
>
>
>
> David S. Eldridge, Jr., P.E., LEED AP BD+C, BEMP, BEAP, HBDP
>
> *Grumman/Butkus Associates*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
> <bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] *On Behalf Of *Jim Dirkes via
> Bldg-sim
> *Sent:* Friday, July 14, 2017 10:09 AM
> *To:* Jones, Christopher <Christopher.r.Jones at wsp.com>
> *Cc:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] 90.1-2010 ECB and PRM questions
>
>
>
> Dear Chris,
>
> I think the "letter of the law" does not require that you model shading
> from an adjacent building for you Baseline.
>
>
>
> The "spirit of the law" doesn't seem to *require *it, either. A Baseline
> building is intended to be a minimum performance standard against which
> your building is compared. For the Proposed building, the owner was not
> compelled to select a site with shading from an adjacent building - it
> could have been in the middle of a corn field with no shading. As a result,
> it seems that you need not include the shading in the Baseline.
>
>
>
> It might, however, be beneficial *or *detrimental to include the shading
> in the Baseline, and it seems acceptable to do either within the standard's
> requirements. I'm imagining a situation where the shading blocks winter sun
> and is a net detriment to energy use. If I wanted a rigorous comparison,
> I'd make the Baseline model in the manner that gave the lowest Baseline
> energy use. If I wanted the most savings :), I'd include the adjacent
> building in the Baseline so as not to be penalized.
>
>
>
> I agree that the Baseline model must include mandatory requirements for
> daylighting.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 8:07 AM, Jones, Christopher via Bldg-sim <
> bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org> wrote:
>
> Hello Sim Folks,
>
> I have two questions regarding 90.1-2010 ECB and PRM. Our building code
> references ECB and LEED references App. G PRM.
>
>
>
> Shading due to adjacent buildings – should this shading be modeled for:
>
> ECB –
>
> PRM –
>
>
>
> 90.1-2010 ECB doesn’t directly refer to shading by other buildings.
>
> App. G as detailed in the PNNL PRM Manual states that external shading
> from other buildings or other objects can be modeled for 90.1-2010 PRM.
>
>
>
> Therefore, I believe one can choose to model that shading or one can
> ignore it.
>
>
>
>
>
> Daylighting controls – should daylighting controls be modeled for:
>
> ECB –
>
> PRM –
>
>
>
> Re. Daylighting:
>
> Reviewing Section 11.1.4 Compliance with Section 11 will be achieved if:
>
> a.       All requirements of Sections 5.4, 6.4, 7.4, 8.4, *9.4*, and 10.4
> are met;
>
>
>
> Table 11.3.1, 6. Lighting, Baseline: Lighting controls shall be the
> minimum required.
>
>
>
> These clauses lead me to believe that daylighting controls should be
> modeled in the baseline using the correct side-lighted and top-lighted area
> calculations.
>
>
>
> App. G as detailed in the PNNL PRM Manual is clear – daylighting controls
> are to be modeled in the baseline.
>
>
>
> Any and all thoughts appreciated.
>
>
>
>
>
> *Christopher R. Jones*, P.Eng.
>
> Technical Specialist
>
> Sustainability & Energy
>
>
>
> [image: cid:image001.png at 01D2FC8B.1E7B3390]
>
> T +1 416-644-0252 <(416)%20644-0252>
>
>
>
> 2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
>
> Toronto, ON M4P 1E4 Canada
>
> wsp.com
>
>
>
>
>
> *Please consider the environment before printing...*
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Sprout Info_Mail via Bldg-sim
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 29, 2017 10:38 PM
> *To:* Mayank Bhatnagar <mayank.23aug at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] Building Energy Simulation: A Workbook Using
> DesignBuilder
>
>
>
> Ohh wow Mayank.
>
>
>
> This is really great. Thanks for sharing.
>
> Does anybody have any more such resources.Please share.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Namrata Dhamankar
>
>
>
>
>
> On 29 Jun 2017 20:01, "Mayank Bhatnagar via Bldg-sim" <
> bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
>
>
> I have been searching for some books on basics of building physics, and
> energy simulation and found a very nice resource to understand the building
> physics along with energy simulation.
>
>
>
> Hope this will help to new members in the field of energy modelling and
> simulation. The book is available at:
>
>
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Building-Energy-Simulation-
> Workbook-DesignBuilderTM/dp/1498744516/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&
> qid=1498012115&sr=8-1&keywords=energy+simulation
>
>
>
> https://www.crcpress.com/Building-Energy-Simulation-A-
> Workbook-Using-DesignBuilder/Garg-Mathur-Tetali-Bhatia/p/
> book/9781498744515
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Mayank Bhatnagar
>
>
>
> Sr. Energy Analyst | Research Scholar
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
> --
>
> James V Dirkes II, CEO / President
> The Building Performance Team Inc.
> 1631 Acacia Dr, GR, MI 49504
>
>
>
> (alphabet soup of efforts for excellence: PE, BEMP, BCxP, LEED AP)
>
> Direct / Mobile: 616.450.8653 <(616)%20450-8653>
> jim at buildingperformanceteam.com
>
> Website <http://buildingperformanceteam.com>l  LinkedIn
> <https://www.linkedin.com/pub/jim-dirkes/7/444/413>
>
> *Coffee conversation:*
>
> They love truth when it enlightens them, they hate  truth when it accuses
> them… They love truth when it reveals itself, and hate it when it reveals
> them*.*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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-- 

James V Dirkes II, CEO / President
The Building Performance Team Inc.
1631 Acacia Dr, GR, MI 49504

(alphabet soup of efforts for excellence: PE, BEMP, BCxP, LEED AP)

Direct / Mobile: 616.450.8653
jim at buildingperformanceteam.com

Website <http://buildingperformanceteam.com>l  LinkedIn
<https://www.linkedin.com/pub/jim-dirkes/7/444/413>

*Coffee conversation:*They love truth when it enlightens them, they
hate  truth when it accuses them… They love truth when it reveals
itself, and hate it when it reveals them*.*



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