[Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2 (minor correction on dates).

Christian Cianfrone CCianfrone at morrisonhershfield.com
Wed Feb 3 09:34:52 PST 2016


When using the Building Envelope Thermal Bridging Guide, the recommendation is to build up the primary assembly in layers as you always would so your energy modeling program can still calculate relatively accurate response factors.  Add additional heat loss by accounting for interface details and subsequently adjust your overall assembly U-value by reducing the thickness or increase the conductivity of the insulation layer.  This way, you get the most accurate U-value and you keep the response factors for the effects of mass, at least as they apply to the majority of the assembly.

This method is easy to implement and would not require additional expertise in 2D and 3D thermal modeling.  The benefit of the thermal bridging guide is that the data is catalogued so the thermal modeling need not be recreated for every project.  There are also other sources of linear transmittance (though not all applicable to North American construction), including Passive House details, ISO 14683, etc.

Christian

From: Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Jones, Christopher
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2016 7:52 AM
To: Bishop, Bill <bbishop at pathfinder-ea.com>; Jim Dirkes <jim at buildingperformanceteam.com>; Joe Huang <yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com>
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2 (minor correction on dates).

One more thought on this topic.

The EE4 modeling program allows you to account for the effects of thermal bridging in envelope constructions. One defines the insulation layer along with the material and percentage of framing. The program then calculates the weighted average conductance, density, and specific heat of the combined layer and defines it as a MATERIAL in the DOE2 input file. It further defines the layers of the construction including this newly created material. I use this functionality to create the material and then copy the definition into the eQuest file I am working on. Below is a table of suggested framing percentages for different constructions.

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[cid:image003.png at 01D09C46.E75BA0D0]
Christopher Jones, P.Eng.
Senior Engineer

WSP Canada Inc.
2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
T +1 416-644-4226
F +1 416-487-9766
C +1 416-697-0056

www.wspgroup.com<http://www.wspgroup.com/>

From: Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Bishop, Bill
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2016 9:43 AM
To: Jim Dirkes; Joe Huang
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2 (minor correction on dates).

Joe,
Thanks for the link to that TC4.7 report at ORNL! It looks like it has a lot of good information. I’m guessing the sample DOE2.1 code could be used as the basis for wall and roof assembly simulation in software compatible with DOE-2 envelope simulation methodology.
My main question is how do we use this data in the simplest , broadest and most consistent way? Do the research findings imply using different assembly U-factors than what is published in 90.1, Appendix A? Jim mentions that the tables already account for thermal bridging, but the Report was published in 2001, and I see no obvious differences between the Appendix A table values in 90.1-1999 and subsequent versions. The Report also looked at thermal capacitance as the second property needed for describing equivalent 1-D wall assemblies, but Appendix A only lists HC (Heat Capacity) values for mass walls and concrete layers.
I haven’t reviewed the whole report to see if it provides insight on modeling common thermal bridges in contemporary assemblies – Z-girts, clips, angle irons etc. The tech transfer and dissemination that you mention should include incorporation into the standard requirements for modeling assemblies in 90.1, so that we are all still using similar baselines and modeling like-for-like.

Regards,
~Bill

William Bishop, PE, BEMP, BEAP, CEM, LEED AP | Pathfinder Engineers & Architects LLP
Senior Energy Engineer

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From: Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Jim Dirkes
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2016 9:02 AM
To: Joe Huang <yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com<mailto:yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com>>
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2 (minor correction on dates).

Joe,
If people are concerned about modeling for LEED baselines, there's no need to understand bridging's impact because the 90.1 tables already account for the bridging.
If, however, we want to prepare models that are true to the construction reality, we need to have an understanding of how heat transfers in real constructions.
Up until a few short years ago, that understanding had completely escaped me.  We'll just say that for 35 of 40 years of continuous involvement in commercial building heating and cooling systems, I didn't know that my U-values calculations were routinely off by 15-20%.
I bet I'm not alone!

On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 8:46 AM, Joe Huang <yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com<mailto:yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com>> wrote:
A final comment on the original question of modeling thermal bridges in e-QUEST (or any other whole-building energy simulation program).   ASHRAE TC 4.7 had sponsored work on this topic 14 years ago (2000-2001),  "MODELING TWO- AND THREE- DIMENSIONAL HEAT TRANSFER THROUGH COMPOSITE WALL AND ROOF ASSEMBLIES IN TRANSIENT ENERGY SIMULATION PROGRAMS (1145-TRP)". The work was done by Enermodal in association with Oak  Ridge National Laboratory and the Polish Academy of Sciences.  The solution was pretty much what I had mentioned previously, i.e., use a 2-D conduction program (HEATING-7) to calculate response factors, although the project went one step further to derive a fictitious 3-layer 1-D wall section with  the same dynamic thermal properties.  For more information, please see the full report available from ORNL at  http://web.ornl.gov/sci/roofs+walls/research/detailed_papers/whole_bldg/ .

Although the project was successful technically, it seemed to have been ignored by the simulation community, and even in many ways  by TC 4.7 itself!  To me,the lesson is that no matter how good is the widget, there always has to be a tech transfer and dissemination effort lest the widget just sits on the shelf.  As a reaction to this thread,  I am currently bringing up the subject within TC4.7 whether we need to do a small follow-on project to do a guideline on modeling 2-D/3-D heat transfer along with a computer tool that makes it no more difficult (well... maybe a little more) to do than standard 1-D heat transfer.

If  there's anyone on this bulletin board who thinks such a project would be useful, please let me know as I make my case to TC 4.7.

Joe
(currently chair of TC 4.7)

Joe Huang

White Box Technologies, Inc.

346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A

Moraga CA 94556

yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com<mailto:yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com>

http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com for simulation-ready weather data

(o) (925)388-0265<tel:%28925%29388-0265>

(c) (510)928-2683<tel:%28510%29928-2683>

"building energy simulations at your fingertips"
On 2/1/2016 6:35 AM, Jones, Christopher wrote:
Christian,
I agree that it is important for designers to understand the effects of thermal bridging at transitions in typical construction details. But convincing developers to spend the extra time and construction cost to reduce these thermal bridges is difficult considering the payback periods range from 30-40 years depending on the project and location.


[cid:image003.png at 01D09C46.E75BA0D0]
Christopher Jones,P.Eng.
Senior Engineer

WSP Canada Inc.
2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
T +1 416-644-4226<tel:%2B1%20416-644-4226>
F +1 416-487-9766<tel:%2B1%20416-487-9766>
C +1 416-697-0056<tel:%2B1%20416-697-0056>

www.wspgroup.com<http://www.wspgroup.com/>

From: Christian Cianfrone [mailto:CCianfrone at morrisonhershfield.com]
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2016 4:52 PM
To: Jones, Christopher; Joe Huang; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2 (minor correction on dates).

Chris, Joe,

Refer to ASHRAE 1365-RP for detailed methodology on the modeling.  The same methodology was used in the BETB Guide.  Sensitivity of transient analysis for the thermal modeling was addressed in 1365-RP.  In terms of thermal mass impacts on energy modeling, this is dealt with in Appendix C of the report.  Analysis was done using EnergyPlus’ Finite Difference method for conduction.

Chris – the point of derating the reference building in the BC Hydro incentive is to encourage design teams to understand the actual performance of their envelope (and buildings).  If you just force people to include all thermal bridging when the codes were clearly developed to ignore most of this thermal bridging, then nobody will ever account for the full effects of thermal bridging.

By not being realistic, designers end up adding (and paying) for more insulation with no real added value.  And the relative savings are not the same – The differences in energy at high R-values are not the same differences in energy at low R-values.

Paperwork is quite straightforward too.  It requires a few take-offs and looking up U-values/Psi Values, which an energy modeler is mostly already doing.  We’ll be releasing some how-to videos in the near future to help folks along.  I’ll post to this group when available.

Cheers,

Christian Cianfrone, M.A.Sc<http://M.A.Sc>., P.Eng., LEED® AP BD+C
Principal, Building Energy Practice Lead
ccianfrone at morrisonhershfield.com<mailto:email at morrisonhershfield.com>

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From: Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Jones, Christopher
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2016 10:15 AM
To: Joe Huang <yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com<mailto:yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com>>; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2 (minor correction on dates).

Joe,
I admit I haven’t read all the appendices. I use mainly appendix B which contains the steady-state U-values of dozens of constructions. Appendix C may provide some insights as to whether or not dynamic characteristics of the constructions were examined in their energy modeling.

From this work, BC Hydro has decided that all thermal bridging in buildings are to be accounted for when performing modeling for BC Hydro incentives. But BC Hydro also now includes blanket factors for de-rating the baseline case energy model to account for typical thermal bridging not accounted for in 90.1. It is a bit baffling to me as one has to go through a lot of work, fill in a bunch of forms to come up with almost no significant difference in relative results:

The same web page, just below “Resources” includes this Accounting for Thermal Bridging at Interface Details along with the spreadsheets:
https://www.bchydro.com/powersmart/business/programs/new-construction.html#thermal



[cid:image003.png at 01D09C46.E75BA0D0]
Christopher Jones,P.Eng.
Senior Engineer

WSP Canada Inc.
2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
T +1 416-644-4226<tel:%2B1%20416-644-4226>
F +1 416-487-9766<tel:%2B1%20416-487-9766>
C +1 416-697-0056<tel:%2B1%20416-697-0056>

www.wspgroup.com<http://www.wspgroup.com/>

From: Joe Huang [mailto:yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com]
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2016 11:46 AM
To: Jones, Christopher; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2 (minor correction on dates).

Christopher,

I took a brief scroll through the link that you provided, and yes, there's a lot of information there. I haven't yet found a technical description of the methodology, but I did get to the tables with pretty colored pictures of wall sections and their computed U-values. I hope there's more information on the dynamic characteristics of these wall sections, i.e., thermal mass, diffusivity, etc., since those would be needed to model them correctly in a simulation program.

In terms of comparing the methodologies, as you've suggested, one place to start would be simply comparing the steady-state U-values derived for the same wall constructions. I've done some digging on my end and found an old 1997 User News newsletter with a brief description of the 2-D response factor work I did with Fred Winkelmann and Vladimir Bazjanac and a table listing the R-values for the 76 steel-frame wall sections modeled.  Since the whole newsletter is only 657K, I've attached it with this e-mail.  The newsletter is interesting in other ways, as well, including the announcement of the 5th IBPSA conference to be held in the Czech Republic :-) .

Joe

Joe Huang

White Box Technologies, Inc.

346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A

Moraga CA 94556

yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com<mailto:yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com>

http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com for simulation-ready weather data

http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com

(o) (925)388-0265<tel:%28925%29388-0265>

(c) (510)928-2683<tel:%28510%29928-2683>

"building energy simulations at your fingertips"
On 1/29/2016 5:18 AM, Jones, Christopher wrote:
Joe,
It would be very interesting to compare the methodologies in your paper with the results of the Morrison Herschfield research. BC Hydro published that detailed research.

https://www.bchydro.com/powersmart/business/programs/new-construction.html?WT.mc_id=rd_thermalguide#thermal

[cid:image003.png at 01D09C46.E75BA0D0]
Christopher Jones,P.Eng.
Senior Engineer

WSP Canada Inc.
2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
T +1 416-644-4226<tel:%2B1%20416-644-4226>
F +1 416-487-9766<tel:%2B1%20416-487-9766>
C +1 416-697-0056<tel:%2B1%20416-697-0056>

www.wspgroup.com<http://www.wspgroup.com/>

From: Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Joe Huang
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2016 5:44 AM
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2 (minor correction on dates).

The work I did for the CEC was done in 1996 (as indicated in the report title), not 2000-2002, which was a follow-on effort to do 2-D foundation heat flows.

Joe

Joe Huang

White Box Technologies, Inc.

346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A

Moraga CA 94556

yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com<mailto:yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com>

http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com for simulation-ready weather data

http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com

(o) (925)388-0265<tel:%28925%29388-0265>

(c) (510)928-2683<tel:%28510%29928-2683>

"building energy simulations at your fingertips"
On 1/29/2016 2:41 AM, Joe Huang wrote:
I actually helped to develop a method to model thermal bridges in DOE-2 back in 1986 that has never been widely disseminated, although I still find it the most practical way to model 2-D heat flows in whole-building simulations.

This method uses a two-dimensional finite-element program (WALFERFN) that calculates one-dimensional equivalent response factors which are written directly into the DOE-2 layers library (BDLLIB.DAT), which can then be called by DOE-2 just like any other response factor in the library.

I've always used this technique in my residential modeling, with the added benefit of not needing to input duplicate sets of wall layers for the stud and non-stud portions, which measurably simplifies the  models and makes them easier to read.  The last time I did significant work on this subject was in 2000-2002, when I created for the California Energy Commission a library of over 100 wall layers with metal framing and thus considerable thermal bridging.  I compared the wall assembly U-values to that calculated by ORNL's Heating-7 program, and they were right on.  Unfortunately, a few years after the project was completed, the Commission decided to move to EnergyPlus as their reference program, and so this work was effectively abandoned.

For more information on this technique, i.e., creating 2-D response factors, please see this report:
http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com/PAPERS/96_12_YJH_2Drespfacs_CEC_rpt.pdf

If there's anyone who's still running DOE-2 in batch, rather than just the eQUEST interface, this procedure should be quite understandable.  Just e-mail me and I'll be happy to give you a copy of the WALFERFN program and some sample input files.

Joe

Joe Huang

White Box Technologies, Inc.

346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A

Moraga CA 94556

yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com<mailto:yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com>

http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com for simulation-ready weather data

http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com

(o) (925)388-0265<tel:%28925%29388-0265>

(c) (510)928-2683<tel:%28510%29928-2683>

"building energy simulations at your fingertips"
On 1/28/2016 1:22 PM, Jim Dirkes wrote:
There is also a landmark study by Morrison Hershfield in Canada which I don't have access to at the moment that should provide guidance.

On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 4:11 PM, Marcus Sheffer <sheffer at sevengroup.com<mailto:sheffer at sevengroup.com>> wrote:
Follow the guidance in ASHRAE 90.1 Appendix A to determine the whole assembly values.

Marcus Sheffer
7group

-----Original Message-----
From: Jones, Christopher [mailto:Christopher.r.Jones at wspgroup.com<mailto:Christopher.r.Jones at wspgroup.com>]
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2016 8:30 AM
To: Luis Peréz-Lombard; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2

Hello Sir,
eQuest does not have the capability to directly model thermal bridges. The typical methodology is to calculate the effective U-value of the insulation/thermal bridge layer when building your layers for the construction.  BC Hydro has published significant research on building  envelope thermal bridging. See the lower portion of the webpage:
https://www.bchydro.com/powersmart/business/programs/new-construction.html#thermal




Christopher Jones, P.Eng.
Senior Engineer

WSP Canada Inc.
2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
T +1 416-644-4226<tel:%2B1%20416-644-4226>
F +1 416-487-9766<tel:%2B1%20416-487-9766>
C +1 416-697-0056<tel:%2B1%20416-697-0056>

www.wspgroup.com<http://www.wspgroup.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of Luis Peréz-Lombard
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2016 4:08 AM
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: [Bldg-sim] MODELLING THERMAL BRDIGES IN e-quest or DOE2

Dear building simulation colleagues,
I would very much appreciate any insights or work around to simulate envelope thermal bridges in e-quest.
Sincerely,
LPL
-------------------------------------------------------------
Luis Pérez-Lombard
Dr. Ingeniero Industrial
Profesor Contratado Doctor
Departamento de Ingeniería Energética
Escuela Superior de Ingenieros
Universidad de Sevilla
Camino de los Descubrimientos s/n
41092 SEVILLA
Tfno.:      95.448.72.56
Fax:         95.446.31.53
e-mail:    lpl at us.es<mailto:lpl at us.es>
-------------------------------------------------------------

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Direct: 616.450.8653
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