[Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 90.1 Window to Wall area definition

[Keith Swartz]

Julien,

Wouldn’t a wall abutting to another wall that is conditioned on the other side make it an interior wall instead of an exterior wall? It’s effectively an addition to the other building.

Keith Swartz, PE | Senior Energy Engineer
Seventhwave | Madison.Chicago.Minneapolis
608.210.7123 seventhwave.org

From: Julien Marrec [mailto:julien.marrec at gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 2:50 PM
To: Nicholas Caton <ncaton at catonenergy.com>
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 90.1 Window to Wall area definition

This discussion is very interesting and  relates to another question I asked before, and since it didn't get much traction and this one did, please allow me to bring it up again.

For above grade walls that are abutting an existing building (adiabatic), do you include those in the WWR calculation or exclude them?

Thanks,
Julien

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 16 oct. 2015 à 04:38, Nicholas Caton <ncaton at catonenergy.com<mailto:ncaton at catonenergy.com>> a écrit :
Whether you choose to build your baseline before/during/after your proposed case, you will need to very actively reference the proposed/actual design along the way to determine where the conditioned spaces lie (per the glossary entries), and from there where the envelope line is drawn separating the conditioned from the exterior/unconditioned/semi-conditioned areas.

Insofar as the WWR discussion thread goes, I believe I’m situated in Nathan’s camp.  I simply (?) equate/read “above-ground” in Appendix G to mean “not facing dirt,” regardless of where the grade lies.

~Nick

NICK CATON, P.E.
Owner

Caton Energy Consulting
  306 N Ferrel
  Olathe, KS  66061
  office:  785.410.3317
www.catonenergy.com


-----Original Message-----
From: Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of Duggin, Cory
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 1:59 PM
To: Jones, Christopher
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 90.1 Window to Wall area definition



According to my understanding it would be based off the proposed.



From: Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of Jones, Christopher
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 1:56 PM
To: 'Elizabeth Gillmor'
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 90.1 Window to Wall area definition

Thanks Elizabeth,
Your reply brings up another question.  If the proposed design meets the requirement of Table 3.1 does the baseline automatically follow suit?  Or does one have to first construct the baseline case model to determine the self-sized heating capacity to determine if the space is conditioned or semi-heated?  It sounds like it would be an iterative process – first model the space with exterior insulation for a conditioned space then determine the heating capacity.  If it shows a semi-heated space, then change the insulation and check again, and so on?


<image001.png>
Christopher Jones, P.Eng.
Senior Engineer

WSP Canada Inc.
2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
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C +1 416-697-0056

www.wspgroup.com<http://www.wspgroup.com/>

From: Elizabeth Gillmor [mailto:elizabeth at energetics-eng.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 2:36 PM
To: Jones, Christopher
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 90.1 Window to Wall area definition

It would have to be heated enough to qualify per Table 3.1, which would be pretty high:

<image002.png>

And then you would have to insulate it like a conditioned space (rather than just a semi-heated space).  But yes, then you could count it!

Elizabeth Gillmor  PE, BEMP, LC, LEED AP

e n e r g e t i c s  consulting engineers, llc
energetics-eng.com<http://energetics-eng.com>
c 303.619.0091

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Jones, Christopher <Christopher.r.Jones at wspgroup.com<mailto:Christopher.r.Jones at wspgroup.com>> wrote:
So up here in Zone 6 and 7 where the first level of parking below grade is often heated enough to make it a conditioned space, one would count those below grade walls in the WWR for the Energy Cost Budget method.  That can make a somewhat significant difference in how much glazing the baseline case has in the above grade walls.


<image001.png>
Christopher Jones, P.Eng.
Senior Engineer

WSP Canada Inc.
2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
T +1 416-644-4226<tel:%2B1%20416-644-4226>
F +1 416-487-9766<tel:%2B1%20416-487-9766>
C +1 416-697-0056<tel:%2B1%20416-697-0056>

www.wspgroup.com<http://www.wspgroup.com/>

From: Elizabeth Gillmor [mailto:elizabeth at energetics-eng.com<mailto:elizabeth at energetics-eng.com>]
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 2:07 PM
To: Shaun Martin
Cc: Jones, Christopher; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 90.1 Window to Wall area definition

That is a great point. Appendix G is different from the prescriptive requirements.

The prescriptive requirements (and thus Energy Cost Budget method) allow you to count below-grade conditioned walls as per section 5.5.4.5 as part of your "gross wall area", while Appendix G specifically says above-grade walls only.


Elizabeth Gillmor  PE, BEMP, LC, LEED AP

e n e r g e t i c s  consulting engineers, llc
energetics-eng.com<http://energetics-eng.com>
c 303.619.0091<tel:303.619.0091>

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Shaun Martin <smartin at shaunmartinconsulting.com<mailto:smartin at shaunmartinconsulting.com>> wrote:
Page 213 of 90.1-2010 says “above-grade”

Shaun

Shaun Martin LEED-AP, BEMP
Principal
Shaun Martin Consulting
#90 – 425 Carrall Street
Vancouver, BC  V6B 6E3
p. 604-789-1095<tel:604-789-1095>



From: Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of Jones, Christopher
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 10:15 AM
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 90.1 Window to Wall area definition

I know this question has been asked before but I could not find a related thread.

90.1 states that the WWR is based on the gross wall area and the definition of gross wall area includes below ground walls as well as above ground walls..  Including the below grade walls can make a significant difference in the WWR for typical urban high rise buildings with a number of below grade parking floors.

Can someone confirm that the WWR calculation is based on above grade wall area plus below grade wall area?


<image001.png>
Christopher Jones, P.Eng.
Senior Engineer

WSP Canada Inc.
2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
T +1 416-644-4226<tel:%2B1%20416-644-4226>
F +1 416-487-9766<tel:%2B1%20416-487-9766>
C +1 416-697-0056<tel:%2B1%20416-697-0056>

www.wspgroup.com<http://www.wspgroup.com/>

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