[Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 90.1 Window to Wall area definition

[Elizabeth Gillmor]

Another interesting question!

If you look at how ASHRAE 90.1 defines "exterior building envelope", as
being "the elements of a building that separate conditioned space from the
exterior space", then I would say that no, your adiabatic walls do NOT
contribute to your building envelope or your WWR, because they do not abut
exterior space.  So you should exclude them from your calc.

*Elizabeth Gillmor  PE, BEMP, LC, LEED AP*

*e n e r g e t i c s  **consulting engineers, llc*
energetics-eng.com
c 303.619.0091

On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 1:50 PM, Julien Marrec <julien.marrec at gmail.com>
wrote:

> This discussion is very interesting and  relates to another question I
> asked before, and since it didn't get much traction and this one did,
> please allow me to bring it up again.
>
> For above grade walls that are abutting an existing building (adiabatic),
> do you include those in the WWR calculation or exclude them?
>
> Thanks,
> Julien
>
> Envoyé de mon iPhone
>
> Le 16 oct. 2015 à 04:38, Nicholas Caton <ncaton at catonenergy.com> a écrit :
>
> Whether you choose to build your baseline before/during/after your
> proposed case, you will need to very actively reference the proposed/actual
> design along the way to determine where the conditioned spaces lie (per the
> glossary entries), and from there where the envelope line is drawn
> separating the conditioned from the exterior/unconditioned/semi-conditioned
> areas.
>
>
>
> Insofar as the WWR discussion thread goes, I believe I’m situated in
> Nathan’s camp.  I simply (?) equate/read “above-ground” in Appendix G to
> mean “not facing dirt,” regardless of where the grade lies.
>
>
>
> ~Nick
>
>
>
> *NICK CATON, P.E.*
> *Owner*
>
>
>
> *Caton Energy Consulting*
>   306 N Ferrel
>
>   Olathe, KS  66061
>
>   office:  785.410.3317
>
> www.catonenergy.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf
> Of Duggin, Cory
> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 1:59 PM
> To: Jones, Christopher
> Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 90.1 Window to Wall area definition
>
>
>
> According to my understanding it would be based off the proposed.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Jones, Christopher
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 15, 2015 1:56 PM
> *To:* 'Elizabeth Gillmor'
> *Cc:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 90.1 Window to Wall area definition
>
>
>
> Thanks Elizabeth,
>
> Your reply brings up another question.  If the proposed design meets the
> requirement of Table 3.1 does the baseline automatically follow suit?  Or
> does one have to first construct the baseline case model to determine the
> self-sized heating capacity to determine if the space is conditioned or
> semi-heated?  It sounds like it would be an iterative process – first model
> the space with exterior insulation for a conditioned space then determine
> the heating capacity.  If it shows a semi-heated space, then change the
> insulation and check again, and so on?
>
>
>
>
>
> <image001.png>
>
> *Christopher Jones,* P.Eng.
> Senior Engineer
>
>
>
> *WSP Canada Inc.*
>
> 2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
>
> Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
> T +1 416-644-4226
>
> F +1 416-487-9766
>
> C +1 416-697-0056
>
>
>
> www.wspgroup.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Elizabeth Gillmor [mailto:elizabeth at energetics-eng.com
> <elizabeth at energetics-eng.com>]
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 15, 2015 2:36 PM
> *To:* Jones, Christopher
> *Cc:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 90.1 Window to Wall area definition
>
>
>
> It would have to be heated enough to qualify per Table 3.1, which would be
> pretty high:
>
>
>
> <image002.png>
>
>
>
> And then you would have to insulate it like a conditioned space (rather
> than just a semi-heated space).  But yes, then you could count it!
>
>
> *Elizabeth Gillmor  **PE, BEMP, LC, LEED AP*
>
>
>
> *e n e r g e t i c s  **consulting engineers, llc*
>
> energetics-eng.com
>
> c 303.619.0091
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Jones, Christopher <
> Christopher.r.Jones at wspgroup.com> wrote:
>
> So up here in Zone 6 and 7 where the first level of parking below grade is
> often heated enough to make it a conditioned space, one would count those
> below grade walls in the WWR for the Energy Cost Budget method.  That can
> make a somewhat significant difference in how much glazing the baseline
> case has in the above grade walls.
>
>
>
>
>
> <image001.png>
>
> *Christopher Jones,* P.Eng.
> Senior Engineer
>
>
>
> *WSP Canada Inc.*
>
> 2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
>
> Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
> T +1 416-644-4226
>
> F +1 416-487-9766
>
> C +1 416-697-0056
>
>
>
> www.wspgroup.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Elizabeth Gillmor [mailto:elizabeth at energetics-eng.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 15, 2015 2:07 PM
> *To:* Shaun Martin
> *Cc:* Jones, Christopher; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 90.1 Window to Wall area definition
>
>
>
> That is a great point. Appendix G is different from the prescriptive
> requirements.
>
>
>
> The prescriptive requirements (and thus Energy Cost Budget method) allow
> you to count below-grade conditioned walls as per section 5.5.4.5 as part
> of your "gross wall area", while Appendix G specifically says above-grade
> walls only.
>
>
>
>
> *Elizabeth Gillmor  **PE, BEMP, LC, LEED AP*
>
>
>
> *e n e r g e t i c s  **consulting engineers, llc*
>
> energetics-eng.com
>
> c 303.619.0091
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Shaun Martin <
> smartin at shaunmartinconsulting.com> wrote:
>
> Page 213 of 90.1-2010 says “above-grade”
>
>
>
> Shaun
>
>
>
> Shaun Martin LEED-AP, BEMP
>
> Principal
>
> Shaun Martin Consulting
>
> #90 – 425 Carrall Street
>
> Vancouver, BC  V6B 6E3
>
> p. 604-789-1095
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Jones, Christopher
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 15, 2015 10:15 AM
> *To:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 90.1 Window to Wall area definition
>
>
>
> I know this question has been asked before but I could not find a related
> thread.
>
>
>
> 90.1 states that the WWR is based on the gross wall area and the
> definition of gross wall area includes below ground walls as well as above
> ground walls..  Including the below grade walls can make a significant
> difference in the WWR for typical urban high rise buildings with a number
> of below grade parking floors.
>
>
>
> Can someone confirm that the WWR calculation is based on above grade wall
> area plus below grade wall area?
>
>
>
>
>
> <image001.png>
>
> *Christopher Jones,* P.Eng.
> Senior Engineer
>
>
>
> *WSP Canada Inc.*
>
> 2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
>
> Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
> T +1 416-644-4226
>
> F +1 416-487-9766
>
> C +1 416-697-0056
>
>
>
> www.wspgroup.com
>
>
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