[Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 90.1-2007 G3.1.1.(b)
Nicholas Caton
ncaton at catonenergy.com
Fri Dec 4 20:40:24 PST 2015
For such spaces (cycled heating only as occurring with many utilitarian
spaces as well in climates where pipes will assuredly freeze otherwise), I
now regularly just plan on separately specifying per-zone baseline systems
9 and 10 as documented in 90.1-2007 addendum ‘dn’ (and identically in
90.1-2010). The LEED v4 Table1.4 workbook for v3 has for some time now
‘caught up’ to incorporating that option so I see that as a general
endorsement by GBCI, and frankly it just makes so much more sense in many
cases.
~Nick
*NICK CATON, P.E.*
*Owner*
*Caton Energy Consulting*
306 N Ferrel
Olathe, KS 66061
office: 785.410.3317
www.catonenergy.com
*From:* Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf
Of *Jones, Christopher
*Sent:* Friday, December 04, 2015 10:53 AM
*To:* Bishop, Bill; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
*Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 90.1-2007 G3.1.1.(b)
Bill,
I believe that vestibules and other zones with cycling heaters (up here in
the North) also shouldn’t be on the baseline floor VAV system based on the
fact that these systems have a different operating schedule.
[image: cid:image003.png at 01D09C46.E75BA0D0]
*Christopher Jones,* P.Eng.
Senior Engineer
*WSP Canada Inc.*
2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
T +1 416-644-4226
F +1 416-487-9766
C +1 416-697-0056
www.wspgroup.com
*From:* Bishop, Bill [mailto:bbishop at pathfinder-ea.com
<bbishop at pathfinder-ea.com>]
*Sent:* Friday, December 04, 2015 11:42 AM
*To:* Jones, Christopher; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
*Subject:* RE: ASHRAE 90.1-2007 G3.1.1.(b)
Baseline systems 5,6,7 and 8 are modeled as one-system-per-floor. Each
floor has an average load intensity. I wouldn’t reevaluate it based on the
smaller area you get after your first pass of creating single-zone systems.
I think the Proposed design is a good guideline here. Consider separate
single-zone baseline systems anywhere the proposed design has a dedicated
zonal cooling unit in an otherwise large VAV system, and model the
plug/process loads in that space accordingly.
~Bill
*From:* Jones, Christopher [mailto:Christopher.r.Jones at wspgroup.com
<Christopher.r.Jones at wspgroup.com>]
*Sent:* Friday, December 04, 2015 11:21 AM
*To:* Bishop, Bill <bbishop at pathfinder-ea.com>;
bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
*Subject:* RE: ASHRAE 90.1-2007 G3.1.1.(b)
Thanks Bill,
I believe your interpretation is correct. Also, I agree that only spaces
with particularly high loads should be included in that exception.
I am testing the 10 Btu/h*ft2 limit on a system with many zones, applying
the rule to conditioned zones only. As I remove zones that meet the limit
from the system, the average changes and more zones meet the exception. I
doubt that many reviewers would take the time to do the necessary
calculation to determine the number of zones that meet the exception.
[image: cid:image003.png at 01D09C46.E75BA0D0]
*Christopher Jones,* P.Eng.
Senior Engineer
*WSP Canada Inc.*
2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
T +1 416-644-4226
F +1 416-487-9766
C +1 416-697-0056
www.wspgroup.com
*From:* Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
<bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] *On Behalf Of *Bishop, Bill
*Sent:* Friday, December 04, 2015 11:02 AM
*To:* Jones, Christopher; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
*Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 90.1-2007 G3.1.1.(b)
Chris,
I would use the ASHRAE 90.1 definitions for *conditioned space* and *floor
area, gross* to make the determination, since Baseline systems are
determined based on “conditioned floor area”. Your plenums and
unconditioned spaces should most likely not be counted in conditioned floor
area, since they are not conditioned, not counted as gross floor area (if
less than 7.5’ headroom) or both. Spaces that aren’t part of your
conditioned floor area shouldn’t factor into to the determination of
thermal load intensity.
I generally only apply G3.1.1 Exception B. to spaces with high loads, such
as the examples listed (server rooms etc.).
Regards,
~Bill
*William Bishop, PE, BEMP, BEAP, CEM, LEED AP **|** Pathfinder Engineers &
Architects LLP*
*Senior Energy Engineer*
134 South Fitzhugh Street Rochester, NY 14608
*T: (585) 698-1956 * F: (585) 325-6005
bbishop at pathfinder-ea.com <wbishop at pathfinder-ea.com>
www.pathfinder-ea.com
[image: http://png-5.findicons.com/files/icons/977/rrze/720/globe.png]Carbon
Fee and Dividend - simple, effective, and market-based.
*From:* Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
<bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] *On Behalf Of *Jones, Christopher
*Sent:* Friday, December 04, 2015 10:25 AM
*To:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
*Subject:* [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 90.1-2007 G3.1.1.(b)
For determining the baseline system type, 90.1-2007 Appendix G, G3.1.1 list
exceptions for determining the baseline system type. Exception (b) states
that spaces with a peak thermal load that differs by 10 Btu/h*ft2 or more
from the average of the other spaces served by the system are to be on a
separate single zone system.
My question is about the word “served”. Are plenum and unconditioned zones
on the system to be included in determining the average peak load? These
spaces aren’t really “served” by the system.
I supposed plenums could be considered as served if the return air path is
through the plenum?
Or do I assume all spaces on the system are “served” regardless of the
space type (conditioned, unconditioned, plenum)?
[image: cid:image003.png at 01D09C46.E75BA0D0]
*Christopher Jones,* P.Eng.
Senior Engineer
*WSP Canada Inc.*
2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
Toronto, ON M4P 1E4
T +1 416-644-4226
F +1 416-487-9766
C +1 416-697-0056
www.wspgroup.com
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