[Bldg-sim] Fwd: Re: RE: Voodoo Engineering

[Paul Carey]

Just to add a couple of points to this interesting debate.

I see the problem being that, as we increasingly set more defined limits
regarding energy modelling and its role in building regulation, we are
seeing buildings that are being built and designed to purely meet
compliance.  This is in some part is useful as it brings all buildings up to
a minimum standard, the flip side of that problem is that it also means,
that to many developers this means there is no incentive to strive for
alternatives or innovative solutions.  It can also allow therefore lead to
the use of simpler tools that meet those prescribed limits, but really don't
push the boundaries of engineering design enhancement of buildings.

The correct implementation and use of energy modelling need not be a
hindrance to projects nor be seen as a necessary "extra" or evil if you
consider the design process as a whole.  If you use the tools at the concept
or schematic design phases, this can quantitatively confirm an engineer's
instinct or gained experience in way that will enable them to show
compliance later on. It will then allow the team to come to a decision on
the most energy efficient but also compliant route of design earlier on in
the design stage and should stop the repeat iteration of designs as the
building design progresses and therefore reduce design costs and with luck
increase productivity and profit accordingly.  Fanciful dream perhaps, but
it does work.

I visited an architect a while back and he said to me "Why do I need to do
modelling, I know the principles of good low energy design, I can read books
and learn more if I need to".   To which I replied, "Well every time you
send me a job to check for building regulation compliance 3 weeks before it
goes before a planning team, I normally have to tell you what you need to do
in terms of meeting compliance as your buildings are consistently failing
and you then have to rush to make those changes.  I am effectively designing
your buildings for you, so if you want to continue without using energy
modelling then please carry on, and I'll continue to design your buildings."
As you can imagine this was one of those Eureka moments for this Architect,
as I waved my red rag in front of his face.

My tuppence worth.

Paul





-----Original Message-----
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Chris Yates
Sent: 20 May 2010 07:55
To: Varkie C Thomas
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Fwd: Re: RE: Voodoo Engineering

Varkie

Vast subject. Kudos for condensing it whilst conveying all the  
necessary meaning.

We are now at a point where Energy Modellers are at the very least  
specialist engineers. In fact, you could say the best are indeed  
"wizards"!

Chris

Sent from my iPhone

On 19 May 2010, at 21:35, Varkie C Thomas <thomasv at iit.edu> wrote:

> Since my response has ended up on Bldg-Sim, I might as well include  
> the attachment with the response which gave my views
> <Building-Energy-Programs-VCT.doc>
> I am including the attachment that I included with my earlier  
> response to John Eurek. Using energy programs is like voodoo  
> engineering if you don't understand its engineering basis.  It  
> analyzes the various options quantitatively.  It cannot be used as a  
> magic black box.  Experience and judgement have to applied to the  
> results.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Eric O'Neill <elo at MichaelsEngineering.com>
> Date: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 12:03 pm
> Subject: RE: Voodoo Engineering
>
>> John,
>>
>> The purpose of energy modeling is to identify differences between two
>> energy related setups. The idea is to tell you how much you could
>> conceivably save by switching from one design to another. This is
>> usefulfor a payback analysis or life cycle cost analysis.
>>
>> Hope this helps, (I'm really not trying to be inflammatory :) )
>>
>> Eric
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Eurek, John S NWO [mailto:John.S.Eurek at usace.army.mil]
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 11:19 AM
>> To: Varkie C Thomas
>> Cc: Eric O'Neill; cmg750 at gmail.com
>> Subject: RE: Voodoo Engineering
>>
>> Varkie, I read your attached paper.
>>
>> "Energy programs are external to the design process. The results
>> are not
>> used
>> to generate construction drawings."  This may be my #1 beef with
>> energymodeling.  What is the purpose?
>>
>> If you say, to save energy...  It does not.
>>
>>
>> John Eurek
>> LEEP AP
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Varkie C Thomas [mailto:thomasv at iit.edu]
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 10:08 AM
>> To: Eurek, John S NWO
>> Subject: Voodoo Engineering
>>
>> Academia institutions and research centers tend to attach
>> disproportionate
>> amount of importance to energy modeling.  Most them have not dealt
>> withreal
>> buildings.  Attached are my views on energy modeling.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Eurek, John S NWO" <John.S.Eurek at usace.army.mil>
>> Date: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 8:14 am
>> Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Compliance rule set for Oregon
>>
>>>
>>> I would prefer Lynn work to ban/destroy/do-away-with energy
>> modeling.>
>>> Any chance this voo-doo engineering will go away any time soon?
>>> It is only
>>> statistical analysis with no meaningful/useful results for anyone.
>>>
>>> As a community I think we are going in the wrong direction for
>> the
>>> rightgoals.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
>>> [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of
>> Carol
>>> Gardner
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 12:30 AM
>>> To: Scott Criswell
>>> Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org; curt.strobehn at eesinet.com
>>> Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Compliance rule set for Oregon
>>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>> Lynn Bellenger will soon be the first female president of
>>> ASHRAE..
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