[Bldg-sim] differences between energy simulations programs

Sat Mar 27 22:37:10 PDT 2010

I would like to know the meaning of modelers getting sidetracked easily....

________________________________
From: Shaun Martin <smartin at shaunmartinconsulting.com>
To: Paul Grahovac <paul.grahovac at prosoco.com>; Clark Denson <cdenson at ssr-inc.com>; "Eurek, John S NWO" <John.S.Eurek at usace.army.mil>; "Peterson, John (EYP/HP CFS)" <jpeterson at hp.com>; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Sent: Wed, March 24, 2010 2:39:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] differences between energy simulations programs

Paul, back to your original question, this document may help.  There is also
a document with a side-by-side comparison table, somewhere. I'll see if I
can find it and send it to you.

If you've been reading through bldg-sim, you'll find modellers tend to get
sidetracked easily. 

Shaun Martin LEED AP
Principal
Shaun Martin Consulting
Suite 200 - 420 West Hastings Street
Vancouver, BC  V6B 1L1
c: 604-789-1095
e:smartin at shaunmartinconsulting.com
member CAGBC, ASHRAE 

-----Original Message-----
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Paul Grahovac
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 1:06 PM
To: Clark Denson; Eurek, John S NWO; Peterson, John (EYP/HP CFS);
bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] differences between energy simulations programs

I don't know what methodology my people used.  I appreciate everyone's
input. I am concerned I should remain a viewer and not a participant on this
listserv since I am not a modeler -- only a consumer of modeling services.
One data point that is not data, but confirmed to me that thermal mass is
real:  I brought an energy auditor to an minimally-heated greenhouse at
night and asked him to point his thermographic gun at everything --including
the concrete blocks holding up the planting platforms.  Everything was blue
and cold except the concrete blocks which were yellow-red warm.

Paul Grahovac, LEED AP
PROSOCO, Inc.
785-393-1816 cell

-----Original Message-----
From: Clark Denson [mailto:cdenson at ssr-inc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 2:40 PM
To: Paul Grahovac; Eurek, John S NWO; Peterson, John (EYP/HP CFS);
bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] differences between energy simulations programs

The way I understand it, the effect of thermal mass is all in how the
heating/cooling loads are calculated.  TRACE is unique from many other
programs in that the user can choose the heating/cooling load methodology
that will be used.  Depending on your choice, thermal mass will be
calculated differently.  Most incorporate some kind of Transfer Function
Method (TFM), and each method is based on calculations and algorithms from
ASHRAE publications such as the 1972, 1985, and 2001 ASHRAE Fundamentals
Handbooks, ASHRAE Research Project #359, and the ASHRAE Toolkit for Building
Load Calculations.

So the question of "What are the differences between TRACE and Energy
Simulation program 'X'?" is complicated by the additional question, "Which
Load Calculation Methodology in TRACE did you select?"

Clark Denson, PE

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Grahovac [mailto:paul.grahovac at prosoco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 10:36 AM
To: Eurek, John S NWO; Peterson, John (EYP/HP CFS);
bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] differences between energy simulations programs

FYI, another comment on TRANE Trace 700:  the modeling engineers I hired
told me, after consultation with TRANE, that exposed interior concrete
floors, when modeled against the ASHRAE baseline of carpeted floors, showed
a reduction in the cooling load, but an increase in the heating load.  An
increase in the heating load was contrary to my reading in passive solar
books.  I used a simplified simulator for lay people, and it showed exposed
interior concrete floors improved cold-weather performance over carpeted
concrete (HEED, www2.aud.ucla.edu/heed).

I have since heard that TRANE does not model thermal mass well.  I have also
not been able to find anyone with experience modeling the thermal mass of
interior exposed concrete floors using any simulation tool.

Paul Grahovac, LEED AP
PROSOCO, Inc.
785-830-7355

-----Original Message-----
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Eurek, John S
NWO
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 3:32 PM
To: Peterson, John (EYP/HP CFS); bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Discrepancy between Equest & Trace 6.2

John,

It is like buying a car.  Do you want a truck, manual/automatic, something
fast.......  You are asking for information overload.  If you know exactly
what you want it may be easier for us (in this list) to help guide you to
the best option.

I also was once curious and found the link below.  The end of the paper has
charts comparing different features.
http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/tools_directory/pdfs/contrasting_
the_c
apabilities_of_building_energy_performance_simulation_programs_v1.0.pdf 

Another sight.
http://www.wbdg.org/resources/energyanalysis.php

I use Trace 700 (v6.2.4).  Why? Because the first, second and third company
I worked for used it.  It is good for running loads, but so-so for energy
modeling.  Also I have never used anything else.  I have looked at equest
and DOE, they both look like learning a completely new programming language.

I wouldn't mind hearing other people's brief views of the programs they use.
Equest, DOE, HAP, ect.

John Eurek LEED AP
Mechanical Engineer,
US Army Corps of Engineers
Omaha District CENWO-ED-DA
1616 Capitol Avenue
Omaha, NE 68102
Phone: (402) 995-2134
email: john.s.eurek at usace.army.mil

-----Original Message-----
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Peterson,
John
(EYP/HP CFS)
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 2:03 PM
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Discrepancy between Equest & Trace 6.2

Has there been any information released on the differences between
energy
simulation programs?  We have a bid requirement with a certain
percentage
listed and we have been asked to address the differences between the bid
model and the newly proposed model.  

Thanks in advance -

John

John Peterson, PE, LEED AP

HP Critical Facilities Services delivered by EYP

6600 Rockledge Drive, 4th Floor

Bethesda, MD  20817

cell: 202-731-5835 

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