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<DIV><SPAN class=478050318-04062009><FONT face=Univers color=#0000ff
size=2>Paul,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=478050318-04062009><FONT face=Univers color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=478050318-04062009><FONT face=Univers color=#0000ff
size=2>Please correct me if I'm wrong since I'm fairly confused by this, but App
G specifies a <STRONG>project-independent</STRONG> set of conditions for chilled
water systems. Maybe these are not ARI standard as I incorrectly pointed
out, but the point is that App G tells me which conditions I must use.
Therefore, if my <STRONG>project-specific</STRONG> conditions are more extreme,
the chiller/cooling tower has to work harder, and the efficiency
decreases. This is therefore an unfair comparison between some arbitrary
set of conditions for the reference building, and the project-specific ones for
the proposed building, similar to using two different weather files.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=478050318-04062009><FONT face=Univers color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=478050318-04062009><FONT face=Univers color=#0000ff size=2>If
anyone disagrees with this, please let me know because I'm quite concerned about
this issue which seems like a significant oversight, especially for hot, humid
climates.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=478050318-04062009><FONT face=Univers color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=478050318-04062009><FONT face=Univers color=#0000ff
size=2>Thanks,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=478050318-04062009><FONT face=Univers color=#0000ff
size=2>Luka</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Paul Riemer
[mailto:Paul.Riemer@dunhameng.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, June 04, 2009 2:03
PM<BR><B>To:</B> Matutinovic, Luka; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org;
bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: Re: [Bldg-sim] Modelling
chillers at non-standard operatingconditions as per Appendix
G<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">I
think you are confusing the ARI standard rating conditions which are climate
independent and your project specific design conditions.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Additionally
there are requirements in Appendix G for reset, so the reference building
chiller will not always operate at standard conditions.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Paul
Riemer<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Matutinovic,
Luka<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, June 04, 2009 12:52 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org;
bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Bldg-sim] Modelling
chillers at non-standard operating conditions as per Appendix
G<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Univers','sans-serif'">Thanks
to Linda and Bill for helping me out with this issue. As far as App G is
concerned, there is a specific set of condenser and chiller temperatures and
condenser flows that must be used in the reference building that represent ARI
standard conditions for which the COP is 6.1 (for centrifugal chillers > 300
tons). Therefore the reference building always operates at standard
conditions, while the proposed building's performance varies depending on
specific operating conditions.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Univers','sans-serif'">While
this is tantamount to asking someone to model the proposed building with a
Chicago weather file, compare it to a reference building with a Miami weather
file and require you to reduce cooling use, the rules are at present
clear. Unreasonable, but clear.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Univers','sans-serif'">So, my
question to the design/simulation community is this:
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Univers','sans-serif'">Has
anyone been able to spec a large centrifugal chiller (900-1500 tons) with a full
load COP matching or at least approaching 6.1, for a Zone 1 climate?
(Specifically my design conditions are 122F db, 86F wb, 42/57F CHW, 95/105
CW) If so, if you could please post the spec sheet that would be
fantastic. Unfortunately the manufacturers don't post this kind of
performance data so a call to the local rep is needed to produce project
specific data.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Univers','sans-serif'">Many
thanks,</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">Luka Matutinovic, </SPAN></B><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">B.A.Sc., LEED<SUP>®</SUP> AP<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><EM><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">Green Building Consultant</SPAN></EM><I><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"><BR><EM> </EM><BR></SPAN></I><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">T. 416.487.5257 ext. 317 <BR>F.
416.487.9766 <BR>Toll Free 1.888.425.7255<BR>www.halsall.com
<BR><BR><B>HALSALL ASSOCIATES LTD. <BR></B></SPAN><ns0:City><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">Toronto</SPAN></ns0:City><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">
</SPAN><ns0:City><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">Richmond
Hill</SPAN></ns0:City><SPAN style="COLOR: blue"> </SPAN><ns0:City><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">Ottawa</SPAN></ns0:City><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">
</SPAN><ns0:City><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">Sudbury</SPAN></ns0:City><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"> <BR></SPAN><ns0:City><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">Burlington</SPAN></ns0:City><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">
</SPAN><ns0:City><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">Calgary</SPAN></ns0:City><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"> </SPAN><ns0:City><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">Vancouver</SPAN></ns0:City><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">
</SPAN><ns0:City><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">Dubai</SPAN></ns0:City><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"> <BR><BR></SPAN><STRONG><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">‘Best Workplaces in
Canada’ </SPAN></STRONG><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><BR></SPAN></B><I><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">2009 Globe and
Mail</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: blue"><BR></SPAN></I><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">P<STRONG> Please consider the environment before printing
this e-mail</STRONG><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; TEXT-ALIGN: center"
align=center>
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Matutinovic, Luka
<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, June 02, 2009 7:28 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org;
'bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Modelling chillers at
non-standard operating conditions as per Appendix G</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Univers','sans-serif'">Hello
All,</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Univers','sans-serif'">I have a question
regarding the minimum centrifugal chiller efficiencies for conditions not
covered by ASHRAE 90.1-2004 section 6.4.1.2. Specifically, I'm trying to
model a chiller for a building in a hot humid climate. The specified
operating conditions for the condenser EWT are 95ºF (35ºC), which
is beyond the range of conditions covered by ASHRAE.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Univers','sans-serif'">In this case, what
should I use for the minimum chiller efficiency in my reference building?
Do I still have to follow Appendix G section G3.1.3.11 which states that my
condenser supply temp shall be the lower of 84ºF (29ºC) or 10ºF
(5.6ºC) approach to design wet-bulb. The wet-bulb in this climate
is 86ºF (30ºC), so the 10ºF approach is therefore 96ºF, which
means my condenser supply temp (EWT) shall be 84ºF (29ºC), the lower of the
two. At this condenser EWT, the minimum ASHRAE efficiencies from Table
6.8.1J vary depending on condenser flow. Since condenser flow is not
specified by Appendix G, should I simply used the Kadj equations at the bottom
of that table? If that's the case, the condenser DT is 15ºF (8ºC) and the
Lift is 41ºF (22.7ºC) and I arrive at an adjustment factor Kadj of 0.88.
Applied to my standard COP of 6.1, I get a COP of 5.4.
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Univers','sans-serif'">My issue with this
approach is that this COP is very difficult to achieve at our operating
conditions. In my opinion, this is an unfair comparison for chillers in
very hot humid climates since Appendix G is prescribing operating conditions
which are considerably more "temperate" than the extreme conditions under which
our chillers will operate. We can realistically achieve a COP of
5.1. In this climate, cooling is a dominant load, yet due to Appendix G
"rules", it will be very difficult to meet the LEED energy prerequisite, since
our chiller are worse than reference.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Univers','sans-serif'">Finally, I'm
assuming that since ASHRAE does not cover this operating range, I don't have to
worry about meeting the mandatory provisions for efficiency listed in Tables
6.8.1H, I and J in my proposed building, ie there is no minimum chiller
efficiency for this range.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Univers','sans-serif'">Any help in this
matter would be much appreciated. If I've missed something in my
calculations or wasn't clear enough, please let me know because this issue is a
big concern to our project.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Univers','sans-serif'">Many
thanks,</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B>Luka
Matutinovic, </B>B.A.Sc., LEED<SUP>®</SUP> AP<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><EM>Green
Building Consultant</EM><I><BR><EM> </EM><BR></I>T.
416.487.5257 ext. 317 <BR>F.
416.487.9766 <BR>Toll Free 1.888.425.7255<BR>www.halsall.com
<BR><BR><B>HALSALL ASSOCIATES LTD. <BR></B><ns0:City>Toronto</ns0:City>
<ns0:City>Richmond Hill</ns0:City> <ns0:City>Ottawa</ns0:City>
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style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">‘Best Workplaces in Canada’
</SPAN></STRONG><B><SPAN
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style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">2009 Globe and
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