<div>If the building is registered before May 2008, can we just follow the APPG for district cooling - i.e. use the chilled water and hot water costs for the proposed building and chiller and boiler for the baseline. Is there any DES memo for prior to May 28 registered buildings that I am missing?</div>
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<div>Thanks in advance.</div>
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<div>-Rohini<br><br></div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 2:21 PM, David S Eldridge <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:DSE@grummanbutkus.com">DSE@grummanbutkus.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<p><span style="COLOR: black">Minu, I think you should apply the DES memo only to the portions of the building that are served from the district cooling. So if your proposed building has on-site heating (electric or otherwise), then you are only using the DES memo for the cooling related systems.</span></p>
<p><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></p>
<p><span style="COLOR: black">Appendix G would apply as normal to your heating system in both proposed and baseline. Let me know if I’m not interpreting your question correctly.</span></p>
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<p><span style="COLOR: black">David</span></p>
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<p><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Minu Agarwal [mailto:<a href="mailto:Minu.Agarwal@BuroHappold.com" target="_blank">Minu.Agarwal@BuroHappold.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 08, 2009 9:03 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> David S Eldridge; <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>; <a href="mailto:bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
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<div class="h5"><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [Bldg-sim] District Thermal Energy in LEED</div></div></span>
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<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy">I too would vote for Option A. I have a somewhat similar grey area scenario:</span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy"> </span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy">In a district cooling system with electric heating ASHRAE 90.1 prior to the DES memo would have had the baseline be district cooling with electric heating in step 1. The DES memo document irrespective of fuel types available on site requires the baseline to be district cooling and fossil fuel boiler in Step 1. ASHRAE 90.1 says baseline system must be selected based on the heating source (and floor area and building type etc) (See G3.1.1). There is a clear conflict here and I have not found documentation on who supersedes what. </span></p>
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<p><strong><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy">Minu Agarwal LEED AP</span></strong><span style="COLOR: navy"></span></p>
<p><strong><span style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: navy">Building Physicist, CoSA Solutions</span></strong><span style="COLOR: navy"></span></p>
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<p><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>David S Eldridge<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 06, 2009 3:38 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>; <a href="mailto:bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] District Thermal Energy in LEED</span></p></div>
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<p><span style="COLOR: black">To make a long story short, I vote Option A except that a portion of your proposed fuel usage will be low-cost or free trash, and the baseline will use only coal, per “Exception to G2.4” in 90.1.</span></p>
<p><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></p>
<p><span style="COLOR: black">Read on at your own peril…</span></p>
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<p><span style="COLOR: black">Paul, I agree with most of what you’ve said. In the definitions section of 90.1 they do include coal as a fossil fuel, so the intention of ASHRAE at least was to include coal among the fuel options. </span></p>
<p><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></p>
<p><span style="COLOR: black">I think you have an opportunity in the selection of the fuel source if the proposed plant is hybrid for coal and trash. If you did have a coal/trash-fired plant, then would you be treating the trash portion as on-site “renewable” fuel source in EAC1 and EAC2? (90.1 “Exception to G2.4”) In that case you would run both models, but the trash would be free in the proposed design and the baseline would use coal alone as the standby source. That would be your gain in overall DES plant performance.</span></p>
<p><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></p>
<p><span style="COLOR: black">Coal plant efficiency-wise, I think you are left with using the documented efficiency of your actual plant that you suggest in Option A, but taking credit only for the cost of the trash. The default efficiencies presented in the DES memo don’t seem to apply to baseline boilers, they rely on 90.1 for the baseline plant configuration. If your plants were instead hybrid with natural gas and trash, then you would use Chapter 6 for plant efficiencies.</span></p>
<p><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></p>
<p><span style="COLOR: black">You don’t mention if you think the coal plant equipment in place would be more efficient than any other coal plant. If that isn’t a point of emphasis, I would suggest taking the cost of trash and calling it a day.</span></p>
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<p><span style="COLOR: black">Otherwise you’ll need a CIR to have the USGBC approve a natural gas baseline boiler plant, but I’m not sure that the intent of the DES memo is to make a comparison against a typical boiler plant, or else the memo could have been simplified to say that. The USGBC seems to have gone out of the way to use fuel source as specified by 90.1 rather than compare against typical.</span></p>
<p><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></p>
<p><span style="COLOR: black">On the other hand, maybe they are just waiting for a CIR to come through to edit the guidance…90.1 does rely on Section 6.4 for baseline plant efficiencies, assuming that a DES would use the purchased heating method G1.1.1 which helped lead to this whole guidance memo in the first place…Good Luck!</span></p>
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<p><span style="COLOR: black">David</span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black">____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________</span></p>
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<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: gray">David Eldridge, PE</span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: gray">LEED® AP, HBDP</span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black"><br></span><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #365f91">Grumman/Butkus Associates</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: gray"> | </span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #8db3e2">820 Davis Street, STE 300 | Evanston, IL 60201 | Ph: (847) 328-3555, ext 224 | Fax: (847) 328-4550</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: gray"></span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: gray"> </span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: gray">Energy Consultants and Design Engineers</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black"><br></span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black">____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________</span></p>
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<p><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Riemer<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 06, 2009 1:28 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'Seth P. Spangler'; <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>; <a href="mailto:bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] District Thermal Energy in LEED</span></p></div></div>
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<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Seth, Sam, and Eric, </span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Thank you for weighing in. I should not have used the word 'plant'. So please allow me to restate my question. </span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">I know the Step 2 baseline boilers are on-site, but <b>what fuel type and what efficiency</b>?</span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Appendix G prohibits fuel switching and I cannot find anything in the DES guide that counters that, so on one hand I think I need the same fuel type which means options A or B.</span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">If I chose option A, I have no savings potential and just distribution losses so no heating side reason to do Step 2.</span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">If I chose option B, I am choosing a code efficiency for a natural draft coal/trash fired hot water boiler. A piece of equipment so far outside the mainstream, I assert that any statement of code efficiency is arbitrary.</span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Appendix G also requires me to use a boiler efficiency from Ch 6, so on the other hand, I want to choose gas so I can get a code efficiency which is option C.</span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">If I choose option C, the savings will be strongly dependent on the modeled price differential between coal/trash and natural gas. This is the savings projects really achieve and why they use coal/trash fired district plants.</span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">The difference between these options may well be the maximum allowed differential of 4 EAc1 points.</span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">I eagerly anticipate any other responses and the forthcoming DES Guide. (Did I miss the public comment period?)</span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Paul Riemer</span></p>
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<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Seth P. Spangler [mailto:<a href="mailto:sspangle@rmf.com" target="_blank">sspangle@rmf.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 06, 2009 12:46 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Paul Riemer; <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [Bldg-sim] District Thermal Energy in LEED</span></p></div></div>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"> </p>
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<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue">In the Step 2 model for the baseline, you DON’T use the same district energy system used in the proposed. Instead, you use on-site boilers of the type specified in ASHRAE 90.1 Tables G3.1.1A and Tables G3.1.1B.</span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue"> </span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue">Interestingly enough, this is a contradiction from what is stated in paragraph G3.1.1.1 of 90.1, but USGBC has clarified their intention in soon to be released updates of the DES Guide. </span></p>
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<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'">Seth Spangler, LEED® AP </span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'">Design Engineer</span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'"> </span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'">RMF Engineering, Inc </span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'">Ph: (843) 971-9639 ext:1497</span><span style="COLOR: blue"></span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'">Fax: (843) 971-9641 </span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'"><a href="mailto:sspangle@rmf.com" target="_blank">sspangle@rmf.com</a></span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'"></span></p>
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<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Riemer<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 05, 2009 4:12 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>; <a href="mailto:bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Bldg-sim] District Thermal Energy in LEED</span></p></div>
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<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Fellow Modelers,</span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d">I would greatly appreciate any answers and comments on formulating a submission and/or CIR.</span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d">I am working on a LEED project which is heated by steam from a coal fired plant and is subject to the USGBC's District Thermal Energy document </span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><a href="https://www.usgbc.org/ShowFile.aspx?DocumentID=4176" target="_blank">https://www.usgbc.org/ShowFile.aspx?DocumentID=4176</a>.</span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Should the baseline hot water boiler plant in the Step 2 analysis be:</span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d">A) a coal fired boiler with the proposed boiler efficiency since 90.1 does not address coal fired boilers,</span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d">B) a natural draft coal fired hot water boiler with an assumed code efficiency since 90.1 does not address coal fired boilers,</span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d">C) a natural draft gas fired hot water boiler with the code efficiency referenced in 90.1, or</span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d">D) something else?</span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Remember the metric is energy cost savings.</span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d">If you reread it, replacing the word 'coal' with 'trash', does your answer change?</span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Thank you,</span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Paul Riemer</span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Dunham</span></p>
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