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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>To make a long story short, I vote
Option A except that a portion of your proposed fuel usage will be low-cost or
free trash, and the baseline will use only coal, per &#8220;Exception to G2.4&#8221;
in 90.1.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Read on at your own peril&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Paul, I agree with most of what
you&#8217;ve said.&nbsp; In the definitions section of 90.1 they do include
coal as a fossil fuel, so the intention of ASHRAE at least was to include coal
among the fuel options. <o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>I think you have an opportunity in
the selection of the fuel source if the proposed plant is hybrid for coal and
trash.&nbsp; If you did have a coal/trash-fired plant, then would you be
treating the trash portion as on-site &#8220;renewable&#8221; fuel source in
EAC1 and EAC2?&nbsp; (90.1 &#8220;Exception to G2.4&#8221;) In that case you
would run both models, but the trash would be free in the proposed design and
the baseline would use coal alone as the standby source.&nbsp; That would be
your gain in overall DES plant performance.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Coal plant efficiency-wise, I
think you are left with using the documented efficiency of your actual plant
that you suggest in Option A, but taking credit only for the cost of the trash.&nbsp;
The default efficiencies presented in the DES memo don&#8217;t seem to apply to
baseline boilers, they rely on 90.1 for the baseline plant configuration.&nbsp;
If your plants were instead hybrid with natural gas and trash, then you would
use Chapter 6 for plant efficiencies.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>You don&#8217;t mention if you
think the coal plant equipment in place would be more efficient than any other
coal plant.&nbsp;&nbsp; If that isn&#8217;t a point of emphasis, I would
suggest taking the cost of trash and calling it a day.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Otherwise you&#8217;ll need a CIR
to have the USGBC approve a natural gas baseline boiler plant, but I&#8217;m
not sure that the intent of the DES memo is to make a comparison against a
typical boiler plant, or else the memo could have been simplified to say that.&nbsp;
The USGBC seems to have gone out of the way to use fuel source as specified by
90.1 rather than compare against typical.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>On the other hand, maybe they are just
waiting for a CIR to come through to edit the guidance&#8230;90.1 does rely on
Section 6.4 for baseline plant efficiencies, assuming that a DES would use the
purchased heating&nbsp; method G1.1.1 which helped lead to this whole guidance
memo in the first place&#8230;Good Luck!<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>David<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'>____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:gray'>David Eldridge, PE<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:gray'>LEED&reg; AP, HBDP<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'><br>
</span><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:#365F91'>Grumman/Butkus Associates</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:gray'> | </span><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#8DB3E2'>820 Davis Street, STE
300 | Evanston, IL 60201 | Ph: (847) 328-3555, ext 224 | Fax: (847) 328-4550</span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:gray'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:gray'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:gray'>Energy Consultants and Design Engineers</span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'>____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

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<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Riemer<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 06, 2009 1:28 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Seth P. Spangler'; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org;
bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] District Thermal Energy in LEED<o:p></o:p></span></p>

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</div>

<p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Seth, Sam, and Eric, <o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Thank you for weighing in.&nbsp; I should not have used the word
'plant'.&nbsp; So please allow me to restate my question. <o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I know the Step 2 baseline boilers are on-site, but <b>what fuel
type and what efficiency</b>?<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Appendix G prohibits fuel switching and I cannot find anything
in the DES guide that counters that, so on one hand I think I need the same
fuel type which means options A or B.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>If I chose option A, I have no savings potential and just
distribution losses so no heating side reason to do Step 2.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>If I chose option B, I am choosing a code efficiency for a
natural draft coal/trash fired hot water boiler.&nbsp; A piece of equipment so
far outside the mainstream, I assert that any statement of code efficiency is
arbitrary.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Appendix G also requires me to use a boiler efficiency from Ch
6, so on the other hand, I want to choose gas so I can get a code efficiency
which is option C.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>If I choose option C, the savings will be strongly dependent on
the modeled price differential between coal/trash and natural gas.&nbsp; This
is the savings projects really achieve and why they use coal/trash fired
district plants.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The difference between these options may well be the maximum
allowed differential of 4 EAc1 points.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I eagerly anticipate any other responses and the forthcoming DES
Guide.&nbsp; (Did I miss the public comment period?)<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Paul Riemer<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Seth P. Spangler [mailto:sspangle@rmf.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 06, 2009 12:46 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Paul Riemer; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Bldg-sim] District Thermal Energy in LEED<o:p></o:p></span></p>

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</div>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>In the Step 2 model for the baseline, you DON&#8217;T use the same
district energy system used in the proposed.&nbsp; Instead, you use on-site
boilers of the type specified in ASHRAE 90.1 Tables G3.1.1A and Tables G3.1.1B.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Interestingly enough, this is a contradiction from what is stated
in paragraph G3.1.1.1 of 90.1, but USGBC has clarified their intention in soon
to be released updates of the DES Guide.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";
color:blue'>Seth Spangler, LEED&reg; AP <o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";
color:blue'>Design Engineer<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:blue'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";
color:blue'>RMF Engineering, Inc <o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";
color:blue'>Ph: (843) 971-9639 ext:1497</span><span style='color:blue'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";
color:blue'>Fax: (843) 971-9641 <o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";
color:blue'>sspangle@rmf.com</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Georgia","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Riemer<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 05, 2009 4:12 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org; bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Bldg-sim] District Thermal Energy in LEED</span><o:p></o:p></p>

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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Fellow Modelers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I would greatly appreciate any answers and comments on
formulating a submission and/or CIR.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I am working on a LEED project which is heated by steam from a
coal fired plant and is subject to the USGBC's District Thermal Energy document
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><a
href="https://www.usgbc.org/ShowFile.aspx?DocumentID=4176">https://www.usgbc.org/ShowFile.aspx?DocumentID=4176</a>.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Should the baseline hot water boiler plant in the Step 2
analysis be:<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>A) a coal fired boiler with the proposed boiler efficiency since
90.1 does not address coal fired boilers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>B) a natural draft coal fired hot water boiler with an assumed
code efficiency since 90.1 does not address coal fired boilers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>C) a natural draft gas fired hot water boiler with the code
efficiency referenced in 90.1, or<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>D) something else?<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Remember the metric is energy cost savings.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>If you reread it, replacing the word 'coal' with 'trash', does
your answer change?<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Thank you,<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Paul Riemer<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dunham<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

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