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<BODY lang=EN-US vLink=purple link=blue>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=140091817-27082008>Dear Dan,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=140091817-27082008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=140091817-27082008>It seems that you have two possible
scenarios:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<OL dir=ltr>
<LI>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=140091817-27082008>You need only to comply with 90.1 as a minimum
performance level:<BR>In that case, it seems that you comply with the "letter"
of 6.5 by having no motor larger than 10HP. You also comply with the
"spirit" if you turn fans off as load
diminishes.</SPAN></FONT></DIV></LI>
<LI>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=140091817-27082008>You are using App G for a LEED project:<BR>In this
case Section 6.5 does not apply. You need to model a Baseline case
appropriate for your building type and size and a Proposed case that matches
your actual Fanwall system and its controls.</SPAN></FONT></DIV></LI></OL>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><B
style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><FONT size=4>The Building Performance
Team<BR></FONT></B><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">James V. Dirkes II,
P.E., LEED AP<BR></B>1631 Acacia Drive NW<BR>Grand Rapids, MI 49504<BR>616
450 8653<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> bldg-rate-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-rate-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Dan
Russell<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 27, 2008 12:20 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Bldg-rate] ASHRAE 90.1 -
VAV Fan Part-Load Power Limitation<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">David – a couple follow-up
questions regarding the two separate circumstances you bring to
light:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoListParagraph
style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d"><SPAN style="mso-list: Ignore">1)<SPAN
style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><![endif]><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Using Appendix G as
the governing authority for performing energy simulations<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoListParagraph
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; mso-list: l1 level2 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d"><SPAN style="mso-list: Ignore">a.<SPAN
style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><![endif]><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">I now see that
Section G3.1.3.15 states “</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">VAV system supply
fans shall have variable speed drives…” with no mention of this requirement
applying only to individual fans greater than 15 hp. So, for energy
simulation purposes it seems the baseline is required to use VFD’s.</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoListParagraph
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; mso-list: l1 level2 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d"><SPAN style="mso-list: Ignore">b.<SPAN
style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><![endif]><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">The wording
specifically identifies “supply fans” but would this apply to return or relief
fans as well? Or, can the baseline return or relief fans be modeled
without VFD’s using constant volume w/ motorized damper on a bypass loop
modulated to maintain building pressure?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoListParagraph
style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d"><SPAN style="mso-list: Ignore">2)<SPAN
style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><![endif]><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Using section 6 for
prescriptive code compliance.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoListParagraph
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; mso-list: l1 level2 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d"><SPAN style="mso-list: Ignore">a.<SPAN
style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><![endif]><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Is it your
interpretation of Section 6.5.3.2.1 that fanwall air handlers using banks of
individual fans rated at less than 15 hp each would be exempt from the VFD
requirement? (i.e. Fanwall controlled simply by staging individual fans
on/off to maintain system flow & pressure requirements would meet the intent
of this prescriptive section?) OR is this an unintended loop-hole in the wording
of the Standard?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">All responses welcome,
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: #a0002f; FONT-FAMILY: Cheltenham"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt; COLOR: #a0002f; FONT-FAMILY: Cheltenham">Dan Russell,
EIT <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #a0002f; FONT-FAMILY: Cheltenham"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #a0002f; FONT-FAMILY: Cheltenham"><IMG
id=_x0000_i1026 height=174 alt=cid:image001.jpg@01C840A4.E711B250
src="cid:140091817@27082008-0A41" width=200></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
bldg-rate-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-rate-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>David S
Eldridge<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 26, 2008 10:14 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Bldg-rate] ASHRAE 90.1 -
VAV Fan Part-Load Power Limitation<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">The baseline building will still
be constructed in the same method using Appendix G regardless of your choice of
proposed AHU. The baseline system will have a single fan/motor AHU, and it
will have VAV characteristics if required based on the system selection table
and size of the system.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">The portion of the Standard 90.1
you are referring to in Section 6 is for prescriptive compliance. If your
project is using the prescriptive section for code submittal, then you just have
to meet or exceed those requirements without a quantification of “how much
better”.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hope this
helps!<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">David<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
bldg-rate-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-rate-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Dan
Russell<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 26, 2008 10:04 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
bldg-rate@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Bldg-rate] ASHRAE 90.1 - VAV
Fan Part-Load Power Limitation<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>My question regards Section 6.5.3.2.1 Part-Load Fan Power
Limitation from ASHRAE Standard 90.1-2004, which states:<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'TT118Co00','sans-serif'">6.5.3.2.1
</SPAN><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'">Part-Load Fan
Power Limitation. </SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'">Individual<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'">VAV fans with
motors 15 hp and larger shall meet one of<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'">the
following:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'">(a) The fan
shall be driven by a mechanical or electrical variable-<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'">speed
drive.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'">(b) The fan
shall be a vane-axial fan with variable-pitch<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'">blades.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'">(c) The fan
shall have other controls and devices that will<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'">result in fan
motor demand of no more than 30% of<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'">design wattage
at 50% of design air volume when static<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'">pressure
setpoint equals one-third of the total design static<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'">pressure, based
on <I>manufacturer’s </I>certified fan data.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>I have a project that is using Fanwall technology in the air
handlers that serve the VAV system. The air handler has 3 rows of 8 fans
each of them only 7.5 hp each (at total of 24 – 7.5 hp fans for a total of 180
hp). When the Standard here says “Individual VAV fans…” is it saying that
for this type of air handler where no individual fan exceeds 15 hp that
part-load control is not required? Certainly, if this is true, using this
technology would be great for demonstrating energy points (aka LEED), but I’m
having a hard time justifying this in my mind.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Does anyone know if this Section applies to “fanwall”
technology or if it is simply intended to make distinction between supply,
return, relief, and exhaust fans?<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: #a0002f; FONT-FAMILY: Cheltenham"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt; COLOR: #a0002f; FONT-FAMILY: Cheltenham">Dan Russell,
EIT <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #a0002f; FONT-FAMILY: Cheltenham"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #a0002f; FONT-FAMILY: Cheltenham"><IMG
id=Picture_x0020_1 height=174 alt=cid:image001.jpg@01C840A4.E711B250
src="cid:140091817@27082008-0A41" width=200></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>