[Equest-users] LEED Review Comment on U-Value Input Method

[Pasha Korber-Gonzalez]

Following the other comments on this, I am confused and worried too that if
they are requiring to simulate mass in the baseline, then how could we use
Mass constructions as "passive" design strategies and take credit for this
type of ECM?

Directly from what I was reading in the 2007 code: Table G3.1.5-Baseline
Building Enevelope
*Opaque Assemblies.  Opaque assemblies used for new building or additions
shall conform with the following common, lightweight assembly types and
shall match the appropriate assembly maximum U-factors in Tables 5.5-1
through 5.5-8:*

Doesn't the reference to "lightweight" assemblies mean that you don't have
to account for thermal lags (massing)?   This has always been my
interpretation.  Therefore, when it comes to modeling the U-values for the
assemblies with the U-value method versus the layer method would be
acceptable for your baseline simulations.  Where there is no requirement to
show any type of massing effects it shouldn't matter if you choose to use
the U-value input method or the layer-by-layer method.

But--it is important for the simulator to understand that when using eQuest
(I can't speak for other simulation tools); the input method has to be
matched in both the baseline and proposed.  You can't choose U-value input
for the baseline and layer-by-layer for the proposed, you have to use the
"apples-to-apples" approach for both models.

It will be a big issue if GBCI mandates that we have to use only
layer-by-layer inputs for compliance where Appendix G is clearly stating
that there is no need to account for thermal lag in the baseline building as
it states "lightweight" construction.  Any type of thermal lag
characteristics in lightweight construction are negligible to the
performance of such constructions as required by Appendix G baseline inputs.

pkg





On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 3:23 PM, Carol Gardner <cmg750 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'll bite. What extends it to the baseline? I still see that it just says
> to credit it to the proposed building. Wasn't this language created to guide
> people to the fact that even if mass was added to a steel framed building it
> still fell under the "steel framed" category and not the mass?
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Bishop, Bill <wbishop at pathfinder-ea.com>wrote:
>
>>  Another piece of the puzzle. From the 90.1 User’s Manual, section on
>> Baseline Building Opaque Assemblies (p.G14 in 2004 ed.):****
>>
>> “The baseline building is assumed to be steel framed no matter what the
>> construction of the proposed building. If the proposed building has thermal
>> mass in the exterior construction and this is a benefit in a particular
>> climate, then the mass is credited in the building performance rating
>> method.”****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> So delayed construction is the de facto method for modeling the proposed
>> envelope, and by extension, the baseline.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Bill****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> [image: Signature in jpg form]****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
>> equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Carol Gardner
>> *Sent:* Friday, June 17, 2011 4:40 PM
>> *To:* Daniel Knapp
>> *Cc:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] LEED Review Comment on U-Value Input Method
>> ****
>>
>>   ** **
>>
>> But the Simulation General Requirements are for the simulation model
>> itself and it's capabilities, they do not address the simulation inputs.
>>
>> I think this section of the code is what governs this issue:
>>
>> Opaque Assemblies. Opaque assemblies used for new buildings or additions
>> shall conform with the following common, lightweight assembly types and
>> shall match the appropriate assembly maximum U-factors in Tables 5.5-1
>> through 5.5-8:
>>
>> But I disagree with Guarav's interpretation for these reasons. The use of
>> the word assemblies might "suggest" the need to model the whole structure
>> but the use of "lightweight" in the sentence, and it's location after the
>> word *shall*, is the key. Those U-values in Tables 5.5-1 through 5.5-8
>> are for lightweight construction. Lightweight construction is not delayed
>> construction. The Standard 90 committee even gave us a variety of wall types
>> to select from on those tables so that we would have an *appropriate
>> assembly maximum U-factor* to use.
>>
>> Anyway, that's my interpretation.
>>
>> Carol
>>
>> ****
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 9:24 AM, Daniel Knapp <danielk at arborus.ca> wrote:
>> ****
>>
>>
>> FYI, Simulation General Requirements as laid out in 11.2 of the 90.1
>> User's Manual specifically call for the treatment of Thermal Mass Effects in
>> the Minimum Modeling Capabilities.  (see 11.1.2.3 and as already mentioned
>> G2.2.1.c) and notes that "A building's ability to absorb and hold heat
>> varies with its *type of construction* and with its system and ventilation
>> characteristics.  This affects the timing and magnitude of loads handled by
>> the HVAC system.  Simulation programs must be able to model these effects".
>> ****
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2011-06-16, at 7:15 PM, Mehta, Gaurav wrote:
>>
>> > Michael,
>> >
>> > Agreed, appendix G does not specifically states that one needs to model
>> delayed construction. However, going by the semantics used in Appendix G,
>> one can conclude that delayed construction should be used. Consider the
>> following:
>> >
>> > Table G3.1-5 Building Envelope, under Baseline Building Performance,
>> part (b) Opaque Assemblies: states that Opaque assemblies......shall confirm
>> with the following common, lightweight assembly types and shall match the
>> appropriate assembly U-factors.....
>> >
>> > **The use of the term 'assemblies' suggests the need to model the whole
>> assembly rather than only the U-factor**
>> >
>> > To answer your other question, how do you know what comprises of the
>> baseline opaque assembly, I'll suggest use Appendix A. For example, for
>> steel framed walls, see section A3.3.1 General, you'll find the assembly
>> layers that you can use to model the baseline above grade walls. Similarly,
>> you can use respective sections for roof, floor, etc. to determine the
>> baseline assembly layers.
>> >
>> > If I remember correctly, somebody in the past has been kind enough to
>> post the baseline assemblies that can be copied to the inp file (or imported
>> into the inp file). Search the archives.
>> >
>> > Furthermore, eQUEST has an extensive library of materials that one can
>> use, which includes the thickens, specific heat and density of the material.
>> You can create your own materials by using the ASHRAE Handbook of
>> fundamentals, chapter 26 (2009).
>> >
>> >
>> > Thanks.
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> >
>> > Gaurav
>> >
>> > Gaurav Mehta, LEED® AP BD+C
>> > Sustainable Building Analyst
>> > Stantec
>> > 1932 First Avenue Suite 307
>> > Seattle WA 98101
>> > Ph: (206) 770-7779
>> > Fx:  (206) 770-5941
>> > Gaurav.Mehta at stantec.com
>> > www.stantec.com
>> >
>> > The content of this email is the confidential property of Stantec and
>> should not be copied, modified, retransmitted, or used for any purpose
>> except with Stantec's written authorization. If you are not the intended
>> recipient, please delete all copies and notify us immediately.
>> >
>> > Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
>> equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of James Hansen
>> > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 3:09 PM
>> > To: Bishop, Bill; Michael Mantai; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>> > Subject: Re: [Equest-users] LEED Review Comment on U-Value Input Method
>> >
>> > Michael, I'd advise that you email the project coordinator (or whatever
>> GBCI calls the "head" of a project review team).  Usually they will answer
>> relatively quick and easy questions so that you don't have to risk
>> improperly addressing a comment.
>> >
>> > Ask them where in Appendix G it specifically requires the time delayed
>> method be used.
>> >
>> > GHT Limited
>> > James Hansen, PE, LEED AP
>> > Senior Associate
>> > 1010 N. Glebe Rd, Suite 200
>> > Arlington, VA  22201-4749
>> > 703-338-5754 (Cell)
>> > 703-243-1200 (Office)
>> > 703-276-1376 (Fax)
>> > www.ghtltd.com
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
>> equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Bishop, Bill
>> > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 4:22 PM
>> > To: Michael Mantai; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>> > Subject: Re: [Equest-users] LEED Review Comment on U-Value Input Method
>> >
>> > Michael,
>> >
>> > My understanding has always been that delayed construction should be
>> > used, though I can't find exact wording in Appendix G that requires it
>> > other than G2.2.1(c). For other components/layers of steel-framed walls,
>> > look to A3.3.1, and to Table A3.3 for assembly U-Factors for different
>> > stud spacing. You should be pretty close to the required U-Factor if you
>> > use the correct materials and thicknesses from A3.3. Yes, you may need
>> > to tweak a layer or two to get the construction to match the U-Factor
>> > exactly. As described in other posts, once you create these
>> > constructions for the baseline, copy them for future models.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Bill
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
>> > [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of
>> Michael
>> > Mantai
>> > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 4:00 PM
>> > To: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>> > Subject: [Equest-users] LEED Review Comment on U-Value Input Method
>> >
>> > We received the following comment on recent LEED review:
>> >
>> > "The simulation input screenshots, provided in the EAc1 modeling
>> > narrative
>> > report, indicate that the exterior wall and roof constructions were
>> > modeled
>> > as QUICK surface type (U Value Input specification method), which does
>> > not
>> > account for the time delayed heat flow through the constructions as
>> > required
>> > by Section G2.2.1(c). Revise the Proposed and Baseline models so the
>> > exterior walls and roof surface types are modeled as DELAYED (Layer
>> > Input
>> > specification method) with the thermal mass effects of the constructions
>> > taken into consideration. In addition, provide a revised LV I report for
>> > each model reflecting the changes."
>> >
>> > Section G2.2.1(c) describes modeling software requirements, but I don't
>> > see
>> > anywhere else in Appendix G that specifies that thermal mass effects
>> > have to
>> > be included in the baseline model.
>> >
>> > Previous review comments on other projects have led me to believe that
>> > U-value input was the correct method to set up the baseline model.
>> >
>> > If I revise the model to input each layer, what layers do I input?
>> > 90.1-2007 Appendix G states to use steel-framed walls, and the Tables
>> > provide minimum R-value for insulation and overall assembly U-value.
>> > But it
>> > does not appear to provide such other items as stud spacing, sheathing,
>> > or
>> > even what material is on the outside of the building (for exterior
>> > walls).
>> > Has anyone else had this type of comment before or are you using the
>> > layer
>> > input method for baseline models?  It seems that if I need to specify
>> > layers, the resultant U-value should equal exactly the minimum U-value
>> > per
>> > the 90.1 tables.  That would lead me to believe that there might be
>> > different combinations of layers that result in the same U-values but
>> > result
>> > in different energy use in the baseline, and obviously I would want to
>> > have
>> > the highest energy use for LEED purposes.
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> >****
>>
>> —
>> Daniel Knapp, PhD, LEED® AP O+M
>> danielk at arborus.ca
>>
>> Arborus Consulting
>> Energy Strategies for the Built Environment
>> www.arborus.ca
>> 76 Chamberlain Avenue
>> Ottawa, ON, K1S 1V9
>> Phone: (613) 234-7178 ext. 113
>> Fax: (613) 234-0740****
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>> --
>> Carol Gardner PE****
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Carol Gardner PE
>
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