[Equest-users] Question on a L2LHP with a Lake/Well GLHX
Otto Schwieterman
oschwieterman at fhai.com
Thu Jun 9 05:35:00 PDT 2011
Thanks Nick,
One of the software tools that will give an annual temperature profile
for the well field is GLHEPRO.
From: Nick Caton [mailto:ncaton at smithboucher.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 9:59 PM
To: Demba Ndiaye; Otto Schwieterman; TaylorRoberts at Eaton.com
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: RE: [Equest-users] Question on a L2LHP with a Lake/Well GLHX
I have also used eQuest as a "well field modeling tool," but have grown
to avoid this practice where I can - I'll get to why in a minute...
Convoluted and time consuming as it is, eQuest actually can make for a
pretty powerful tool for determining GLHX behavior in the near and long
term, but you must have solid inputs/assumptions for the important
variables (many) and a model that well-represents the heating/cooling
loads that are intended to be designed around. I've heard if from guys
who've done GLHX design/commissioning all day that eQuest is highly
regarded in some such circles from a "science of geothermal design"
perspective, as it allows for rigorous control of so many variables and
really does things on an hourly basis, but operating it for design is at
best iterative and can be very time-intensive if you aren't VERY
proficient and do it often.
It's fair to note there are software packages out there (free and
for-cost) which are much easier to use to determine an annual
temperature profile, even if they don't all have the same rigor as what
can be modeled on an hourly basis using eQuest. If your goal is to
simply come up with an annual temperature profile of reasonable
accuracy, and not necessarily to design/commission well field
installations, you can achieve your goal much faster by either (A) using
a separate loop design software, or (B) engaging whoever is/was
responsible for the well field design to produce an annual temperature
profile. Be prepared to bring your own monthly heating/cooling loads
incident on the loop to the table.
Best of luck!
~Nick
NICK CATON, P.E.
PROJECT ENGINEER
Smith & Boucher Engineers
25501 west valley parkway
olathe ks 66061
direct 913 344.0036
fax 913 345.0617
www.smithboucher.com
From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Demba
Ndiaye
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2011 4:25 PM
To: Otto Schwieterman; TaylorRoberts at Eaton.com
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Question on a L2LHP with a Lake/Well GLHX
Do you mean the temperature of the fluid returning from the ground-loop
heat exchanger?
I have relied on that at times, but it is not perfect. If someone knows
a better way ....
______________
Demba NDIAYE
From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Otto
Schwieterman
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2011 4:56 PM
To: TaylorRoberts at Eaton.com
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Question on a L2LHP with a Lake/Well GLHX
Taylor,
Make sure you specify the size for all of the water side equipment
(Loop-to-Loop Heat Pumps, Boilers, and Pumps). If I let eQUEST size this
equipment with a central geothermal system the default sizes are way off
and the model does not give the results that you would expect.
You may want to consider using load management and equipment controls so
the system operates in eQUEST as you want.
When you get close I would recommend creating a ground temperature
schedule for the Ground Loop Heat Exchanger if the loop is a ground
source loop. The Lake/Well loop gets the ground temperature from the
weather file that is used (you have to select a lake/well loop for a
central system). Has anyone created a ground loop temperature schedule?
If you have, how did you determine the ground temperatures? My plan is
to create the model as a geothermal heat pump system, get the ground
temperatures from the hourly reports and create a schedule from the
results. This is very time consuming but it is the most accurate way
that I can think of to get the proper ground temperatures.
LAKE/WELL The loop return temperature is set equal to
the temperature given by LOOP-TEMP-SCH, if specified. If LOOP-TEMP-SCH
is not specified the monthly ground temperature from the weather file is
used. This option allows you to simulate water-wells, lakes, and rivers,
where the temperature of these sources is driven by factors other than
the loop thermal demands. Since the supply temperature is fixed by the
schedule, all keywords pertaining to the ground field definition are
ignored.
Note that a GROUND-LOOP-HX of TYPE =
LAKE/WELL can be attached to CIRCULATION-LOOPs of TYPE = WLHP, CW
(condenser water), or LAKE/WELL. This allows chillers or other
water-cooled components to be attached to heat sinks like a lake, well,
or river rather than a cooling tower or outside air.
Good luck,
Otto
From: Paul Riemer [mailto:Paul.Riemer at dunhameng.com]
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2011 3:32 PM
To: 'TaylorRoberts at Eaton.com'
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Question on a L2LHP with a Lake/Well GLHX
Taylor,
Whenever anyone says VAV, I hear VAV with reheat so if you have reheat
the following might help.
I believe the L2L heat pump assumes one refrigerant circuit, such that
if it sees load on both loops it will have to meet both loop temperature
set points regardless of the magnitude of either load. So a lift of
around 88 (= 130-42). Do you want that and thus your boiler is truly
back up? You can end up with the tail wagging the dog where you punish
the efficiency of the heat pump in cooling to meet a little reheat load.
Or would you rather have your boiler operating as a reheat boiler or in
series with your condenser water heat exchanger?
I have worked more with the banks of water to water heat pumps that
provide simultaneous heating and cooling by having some heat pumps in
each mode, thus none working against the huge lift. I end up modeling
those as separate chilled water and heating water plants. No its not
perfect but with the lake/well loop you were already going to be
assuming a temperature profile and disconnecting your equipment from any
model representation of lake/well capacity.
Those are very different approaches in design and in modeling, so I'd
consider which you want. Good luck.
Paul Riemer, PE, LEED AP
DUNHAM
From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Patrick
Keeney
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2011 2:29 PM
To: Brian Fountain
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Question on a L2LHP with a Lake/Well GLHX
Thanks for your responses, Brian.
Where do you find these help files that you mentioned? Are you talking
about the tutorial and reference PDFs in eQUEST, or is there something
more comprehensive like full project examples with the pd2 and inp
files?
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 3:02 PM, Brian Fountain <bfountain at greensim.com>
wrote:
The added pumping power is likely from the default 200 ft of static
pressure on the lake/well ground loop. Try changing this.
I've only played with 1 of those system types but I found it was very
sensitive to the 4 temperatures on the "Miscellaneous" tab of the
chiller (and the defaults were not helpful -- but the values in the help
file were.
Wish I could be of more help -- good luck.
Brian
On 6/6/2011 2:12 PM, TaylorRoberts at Eaton.com wrote:
Hello everyone,
I am trying to model a HVAC system that is composed of a central
geothermal system that uses a heater/chiller with back up boilers to
provide hot and chilled water to AHU for a VAV air-side system.
Following the advice I found on the archives from the Loop to Loop
Heatpump in eQuest discussion I modeled a system with a L2LHP that uses
a lake/well loop (see screen shot). I made sure to zero out the static
head for the GLHX and changed the max hot water temp in the hot water
loop to 130F to be compatible with a heatpump. I compared this system to
a basic chiller/boiler VAV system to see if it showed any signs of
improvement and the results have been very puzzling. The geothermal
system is using slightly less energy to cool but isn't providing any
heating to the system. Instead the boilers are providing all of the
heating. When I remove the boilers to make the L2LHP provide all of the
heating it is performing terribly using an enormous amount of
electricity to heat. Also, I assumed that there would be a pumping power
increase but the L2LHP is using about 3X the electricity as the
boiler/chiller system and this seems way too large.
Has anyone had any luck modeling a system like this or has any
ideas why my L2LHP model is using more energy than a standard
chiller/boiler system?
Taylor Roberts, EIT
Energy Solutions Intern
Energy Solutions Group
E M C Engineers, Inc.
Eaton's Electrical Services & Systems
970-208-7917
TaylorRoberts at Eaton.com
_______________________________________________
Equest-users mailing list
http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to
EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com/>
Version: 10.0.1382 / Virus Database: 1511/3684 - Release Date:
06/06/11
_______________________________________________
Equest-users mailing list
http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to
EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
--
Patrick J Keeney
MArch-MSSD Candidate
410-299-5627
________________________________________________________________________
________________
Fanning/Howey Associates, Inc. intends to send this transmission
(including any attachments) only to the
designated individual or entity. If you received this message in
error, please notify the sender by replying
to the electronic mail (if electronic) or by telephone at the number
indicated on this document.
Fanning/Howey Associates, Inc. has taken reasonable precautions to
ensure no viruses are present in the
electronic mail. Fanning/Howey Associates, Inc., will not accept
responsibility for any loss or damage arising
from the use of this electronic mail or attachments. Use, disclosure,
dissemination, distribution, or reproduction
of this message by unintended recipients is not authorized and maybe
unlawful. Any information included in
this transmission that is not related to contracts with our
authorization, verbal or written, by Fanning/Howey
Associates, Inc. may not be covered by our professional liability
insurance.
________________________________________________________________________________________
Fanning/Howey Associates, Inc. intends to send this transmission (including any attachments) only to the
designated individual or entity. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender by replying
to the electronic mail (if electronic) or by telephone at the number indicated on this document.
Fanning/Howey Associates, Inc. has taken reasonable precautions to ensure no viruses are present in the
electronic mail. Fanning/Howey Associates, Inc., will not accept responsibility for any loss or damage arising
from the use of this electronic mail or attachments. Use, disclosure, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction
of this message by unintended recipients is not authorized and maybe unlawful. Any information included in
this transmission that is not related to contracts with our authorization, verbal or written, by Fanning/Howey
Associates, Inc. may not be covered by our professional liability insurance.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/equest-users-onebuilding.org/attachments/20110609/5b260616/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 1459 bytes
Desc: image001.jpg
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/equest-users-onebuilding.org/attachments/20110609/5b260616/attachment.jpeg>
More information about the Equest-users
mailing list